using older shotguns

R

rick born

Member
I am looking into reloading shells with bismuth for gunning ducks. I have reload in the past for trap and skeet but looking to get older guns back on the bay. im interested in gunning a 1909 auto repeater Remington pre 11., parker sxs 12 ga 30 in full choke and 2 lefevers 28 in and 30 in full choke. I use the 28 in ic and mod on grouse and pheasant now. the 30 in lefever was used till steel came to be law. all guns are safe to shoot. the Remington has a lot of history with first and second owner. I being the third. any reloading help would be greatly appreciated. thanks rick
 
BTW- what grade is the Parker

and are the Lefevers nitro specials or earlier Uncle Dans - post some pics if you would
 
parker and lefevers are blue collar guns Trojan and nitro. parker is 1920 and lefevers are 1926 and 1927 I believe. the nitros are all redone springs firing pins and one restocked with fore to match. parker is original in fair condition. Remington is restocked to original and all interior works gone over clean and replaced. I replaced bolt and recoil fiber inside of gun. I went to give gun back to second owner after all work was completed but he said it looked better then when he bought it. he wanted me to have it to shoot a black duck for him . he passed away a week before season opened. I never got to get photo of him gun and the duck. the Remington was his favorite gun. he bought used and his bought with trapping money. it was very special to him and me with stories of the past.
 
I am going to get the book by tom rooster. I have a few old paper shells left that didn't get wet from storm sandy. low psi is what im looking for thanks for info rick
 
great -

one good thing with the Lefevers then it that they should be 2 3/4- i do not see why factory Rio bismuth would not work in them

the Parker should be measured - at that date it also may be fine

http://www.rioammo.com/images/bismuth_classic_comp.jpg

the Remington should also be checked for 2 3/4 chambers but once again - you may e good to go

if you want to reload- the books above are good starts.

there is also (assuming they get their act together and production becomes reliable) Nice Shot is a old gun friendly shot that loads with lead recipes and components (adds about 1500 PSI to pressure, so pick your loads accordingly)
 
I looked into rio shells but being from the land of no because of safe act cant order on line. my thoughts went to reloading because I can get the stuff needed shipped here plus my dad use to reload gunning shells back in the day of lead. I think reloading and using a gun you do all the work to and with would be rewarding to frame that hunt too.
 
I use to reload bismuth for a 1926 Ithaca Flues. As someone mentioned, there should be plenty of reloading info available. I used some recipe for low pressure and gave me just over 1200 fps that really knocked the soup out of ducks. You might also consider Ballistic Products "ITX" shot as a possible nontoxic substitute for lead as well. It has similar characteristics to lead and bismuth and might be cheaper than bismuth. Got to love the history, feel, and nostalgia of the old classics!
 
From what I have heard and seen the pressure is the bigger of the two killers of old guns. I have a 1921 fox sterly and shot a case of regular "light" target loads the first summer I had it and banged the butt stock lose on it which caused me to have to pay for a major repair. I also have a Remington auto but it's Browning's design. From what I've been told you need to be in the 8500 psi range. Most lead target loads are in the 11,000 psi range. This is just what I've been told by other loaders and vintage gunners.


I think you should post a pic of your guns so we can drool over them.


eddie
 
I looked into rio shells but being from the land of no because of safe act cant order on line. my thoughts went to reloading because I can get the stuff needed shipped here plus my dad use to reload gunning shells back in the day of lead. I think reloading and using a gun you do all the work to and with would be rewarding to frame that hunt too.

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yeah - the unsafe act causes us a lot of grief, i can't order my RST's for the old guns (which i am sure has affected the criminal element severely )- I am now set up to reload for everything I shoot, including short tens and 2 1/2 inch 12's

low pressure loads are easy to find for lead- they are out there for bismuth
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If pressures are a concern, you can send shells to Ballistic Research (not to be confused with Ballistic Products), and you will get a pressure and speed report back. Load data based on math or cyber experts can be dangerous. I got a load from a reload guru that was of by 5000psi over max for a 10a.

Ballistic Research phone number is: 815-385-0037. Ask for Tom.
 
If pressures are a concern, you can send shells to Ballistic Research (not to be confused with Ballistic Products), and you will get a pressure and speed report back. Load data based on math or cyber experts can be dangerous. I got a load from a reload guru that was of by 5000psi over max for a 10a.

Ballistic Research phone number is: 815-385-0037. Ask for Tom.
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Tom Roster's services are invaluable for questionable loads

i stick with reliable published sources - you are correct - too many "experts on the web"

for low pressure short ten loads - one of the best sources is the series of "Finding Out For Myself" articles by Sherman Bell published in Double Gun Journal a few years ago. He pressure tested the loads. (he also tried to blow up on of those dangerous damascus barrels - a rusty set of Parker tubes, it took over four time the SAMI load limit to do it.)

for the original posters question about 12 gauge bismuth loads, I doubt you can do better than the BPI or Precision's book

the old guns are a lot of fun, and truth be told - many of them have probably digested loads over the years that would make a knowledgeable shooter duck for cover and have held together. I know the chamber length and minimum wall thickness on my guns -

I was on a clay course at a classic double gun event once when the shooter ahead of me touched off a load that was very loud and set him back a few paces. turned out he somehow got a 3 inch steel load mixed in and fired it in a 2 1/2 inch double. He had the gun checked out and there was no damage. Darn lucky and not recommended, the next one could send the ribs flying,

on the other hand - I hunted for many years with a 1904 Parker that was rebarreled in the 30's by Parker/Remington with modern steel 2 3/4 chambers, after shooting modern standard loads in it for about 10 years I noticed the stock was cracking at the wrist. once the new stock is on- it will be good to go for another generation.


so- whats my point? - err on the side of caution for the guns sake if not for yours, load speed and shot size kills birds, not chamber pressure
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OR just forget the whole reloading dance and just stuff it down on top of black powder from the front of the barrel lol


DSC_0034_zpsfh825dnz.jpg

 
In addition to ITX or Bismuth, Buck Run offers E-Shot, a non-tox using the same load data as lead loads.

By the way, E-Shot is cheaper than ITX or Bismuth!
 
I am currently reloading for some 30's vintage Francottes and a 1895 Baker New Era the latter being a London twist barrel. I was disappointed with the lethality of Bismuth and often found shattered pellets lodged between feathers an skin that never penetrated the duck. The only reason I could do the postmortem is my partner was slinging steel. As a result I went to ITX shot available from Ballistics Products. I use several of their book loads one favorite is 11/8 ITX over steel traveling at 1375 generating 8500 psi. Note ITX cannot be shot in Damascus or Twist barrels. You may wish to keep load weight in mind. The older guns were made to throw considerably lighter shot weights than modern shells. The Greener rule of 96 is often used to discuss load weights. The Greener rule suggests you take the weight of the gun in ounces ie 6 3/4 lbs x 16 = 101.25 oz divided by 96 = 1.05 oz or gun was designed to shot roughly 1 oz shot loads.
Grouse hunt this past fall with Turbo and A&F Francotte
View attachment reduced.jpg
BTW - If the gun is short chambered it is not that big a deal to cut down the hulls
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Have fun
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I know bismuth had problems being brittle in the pass. I have read that putting buffer in load helped it, also with rio on board the shot was changed to help with this problem. im not going to change the chokes on the guns all being full and mod. I have shot lefever at tower shoot with low brass 6s in aa hull lite I believe to be 8700 psi they worked great. I didnt loosen any teeth and gun like them. Im going to look to find that load that is gun and body friendly that will take duck to 40 yds. a one oz. load hopfully. I like the greener rule its going on reload bench thanks. im currently making three quarter oz. loads for skeet in 12 gauge helps save on shot use thanks rick
 
I have heard the newer bismuth is less brittle and it may have been achieved by adding more tin. This would also reduce the density of the pellet. I agree you don't need super loads to kill most ducks. BTW - Not referring to geese or the coastal ducks. For decades the official load in the UK was 1 1/16 oz.
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I am looking into reloading shells with bismuth for gunning ducks. I have reload in the past for trap and skeet but looking to get older guns back on the bay. im interested in gunning a 1909 auto repeater Remington pre 11., parker sxs 12 ga 30 in full choke and 2 lefevers 28 in and 30 in full choke. I use the 28 in ic and mod on grouse and pheasant now. the 30 in lefever was used till steel came to be law. all guns are safe to shoot. the Remington has a lot of history with first and second owner. I being the third. any reloading help would be greatly appreciated. thanks rick
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I just sold this 1909 Lefever yesterday. It was a beautiful gun and well put together, but with 30" barrels it was slightly heavy for upland and though I had some good duck hunts with it, bismuth became a pita and I was always worried about the stresses of modern loads on that old steel.



 
I love doubles for upland hunting. Have not made the switch to waterfowl though. I did use to hunt waterfowl with a 1927 Fox sterl. but it was only for a short period of time and i did shoot bismuth out of it. I now use an AYA Model 25 for uplands in 20ga.
 
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It is much easier to find an upland double than a heavy 12a fluid steel double, although over-unders are more available than s/s.

But it it is worth the effort to find one, because you can get reliability lacking in autos.

Two trips with Benelli auto shooters had 4 out of 6 with malfunctions and on the other trip 2 out of 3. Life is too short for that kind of aggravation.
 
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