Daily vs Possession

Not sure if this was mentioned directly, but the possession limit is for all waterfowl taken under jurisdiction of USFWS, not license allotment. If you have a license for more than one state/flyway, the greater possession limit is allowed but the birds must be tagged, etc.

Had some buddies have a confused argument with USFWS Officers about how many they shot in ND and how many they already had in their freezer at home......
 
As I understood Alaska law a daily limit till midnight than a new daily limit starts. Very well enforced... Had a guy next to me fishing and he was Fish and Game...
 
Kind of on this subject, a few years ago I had the opportunity to hunt in six different states during one season. I guess we were lucky, because we were checked in EVERY SINGLE STATE! Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Rhode Island, Massachusetts and Virginia. The first state we hunted was RI. This was several years ago when the possession limit was 2X the daily limit. We were scheduled to hunt for three days. On the first day of the hunt, we were checked. I popped this question to the Wildlife Officer. He basically recited the law as it is written and interpreted, with some type of exception, (although he was even unclear about exactly what that meant), if you were to have the meat processed by a licensed processor, that particular meat wouldn't count against your personal possession limit, "he thought". He said the law considers the actual possession limit at any one time to be two times your daily limit-period. But then we talked about guys doing a lot of hunting when he emphatically stated something to the effect of-if a Wildlife Officer is checking your freezer, you most probably have a LOT MORE to be worried about than how many ducks you have in there.


After that, I made sure to ask that question to every other officer we encountered. All gave pretty much the same answer, including the "checking your freezer" line. I found it very interesting that every single WO offered that honest last line.


Jon


Oh and by the way, we were perfectly legal in all of "those" accounts...
 
I have several friends that are wardens... the possession clause is never interpreted the same. One says that cooked, or in jerky is no longer in possession.. others say...that it must be processed to be out of your possession..and the only form of processing that removes it from possession is after you eat it. it is processed by the time it comes out your back end...
 
I was under the impression that the history of the possession limit was to prevent a return to the days of market hunting, when they shot hundreds of waterfowl a day. As another poster noted, if the CO checks you out and notices something amiss and starts to dig deeper into your trunk or cooler, then you're already in some sort of a trouble, and if they catch you over the posession limit, it's just a couple mroe violations/tickets for them to write. I have many a CO count the ducks as we were getting out of the boat or as I was getting ready to depart.

I recall a trip to a ZEC in Quebec for speckled trout spanning several days where both the daily and posession limit was 10 per pseron, per day. So basically, you ate trout the whole time you were there and hopefully you would be able to recoup what you ate before you left. Some of these small lakes only opened up for a single day in the entire year. The COs tended to check everyone at these 1-day lake openings (there were 2 or 3 pretty much every weekend in this one ZEC) and of course at the gate on yoru way out. There was no way you could leave without them going through your cooler. It was a $300 fine per violation (back then). I saw someone get a $3,000 fine right there on the spot with my own eyes because someone had to leave early and left their 10 fish in someone else's cooler - even though he told the guys at the gate when he left!

BTW, a ZEC in Quebec is public land which was leased to hunting clubs for ages and ages for wealthy american anglers and hunters to use until the '80s when they relaized it shoudl be availabel for public use. Unfortunately, since the clubs built roads, bridges, buildings and other infrastructure on that land, the gov't has to ask for money from the public to access the territory - I assume to keep up the infrastructure. The clubs still keep their buikldings and docks which remain private, but everyone is allowed to go there (there is a daily occupancy capacity though).
 
So, playing devils advocate here. If you process game into jerky, sausage, or whatever, how would fish and game know what the meat was used to make said processed product? Not suggesting anything here but suppose you took several bags of Jack Link jerky with you on a trip and replaced the Teriaki beef jerky with duck jerky, how would they know what's in the bag without taking the bag in for some DNA testing?

Suppose you were driving back from a good weekend of duck hunting and you had in your possesion the legal amount of ducks you are allowed to have and they had the wing and head still attached - you were completely legal. And, in the passenger seat you had a bag of duck jerky made last year, are you over the possession limit? Now replace that ducky jerky with a bag (bag exactly the same as what you had duck jerky in) of deer jerky from last year, how would the CO know is in the bag? Now replace the deer jerky with Beef Jerky. Once again, how would they know?

Stirring the pot a little at a time here....

Mark W
 
I think the issue with food products is when you come into the US from Canada. Between "possession" and meat product import restrictions, its a can-o-worms.
I don't know of any warden that would consider jerky or other cooked product to be "in possession" stateside.
 
If you have a lot of meat they will do DNA.

Like it has been said if your home is getting checked that closely then you probably got caught in the field doing something else.

Tim
 
I don't know of any warden that would consider jerky or other cooked product to be "in possession" stateside.
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Unless they wanted to make an issue of it for some reason, of course.

Coming home from hunting, they would have no reason to suspect you had committed a crime and thus would have no reason to contact you to search your vehicle, right? :).
 
And that something else you did in the field was probably reallllyyyy bad.
 
Coming home from hunting, they would have no reason to suspect you had committed a crime and thus would have no reason to contact you to search your vehicle, right? :).
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Not exactly true in MN. We actually have game stops during some of openers where if it looks like you were out for the oper of fishing cause you're trailerinfg a boat, you get pulled over and questioned/searched. I know, unbelieveable isn't it?

Mark W
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Coming home from hunting, they would have no reason to suspect you had committed a crime and thus would have no reason to contact you to search your vehicle, right? :).
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Not exactly true in MN. We actually have game stops during some of openers where if it looks like you were out for the oper of fishing cause you're trailerinfg a boat, you get pulled over and questioned/searched. I know, unbelieveable isn't it?

Mark W
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It isn't unbelievable, but it is bullshit.
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Tod~

After a lawsuit a couple of decades back, our ECOs here in NYS fully respect the Fourth Amendment and the need for probable cause before conducting a search. They understand that evidence that one has been hunting is NOT evidence that one has committed a crime.

All the best,

SJS
 
Tod~

After a lawsuit a couple of decades back, our ECOs here in NYS fully respect the Fourth Amendment and the need for probable cause before conducting a search. They understand that evidence that one has been hunting is NOT evidence that one has committed a crime.

All the best,

SJS
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What does that mean Steve? Does that include no license check at the ramp? Checking guns for plugs? Requesting to see your birds? Just curious.
 
Carl~

I have always been unsure of the possession sections of the regs - even back when it was my professional responsibility to know it! I have always thought this topic (and several others) needed some updating, to reflect modern practices (especially the prevalence of home freezers).

A couple of thoughts/questions:

[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]§ 20.32 During closed season.

No person shall possess any freshly killed migratory game birds during the closed season. HISTORY: [38 FR 22021, Aug. 15, 1973] [/font]

1 ~ Does "freshly" refer to the fillets I shot yesterday but are now in my refrigerator or freezer? Isn't there something in the CFR about birds being allowed to stay in your freezer until sometime in July?

2 ~ I usually hang my birds (on the north wall of my shop - in cool weather) and then clean them all as one batch. Although I never exceed the possession limit, I frequently find myself cleaning the birds during the closed season (e.g., I usually fall asleep during an NFL game on the last day of the season and so clean the birds a couple of mornings later.).

3 ~ I commonly hunt 3 zones here in NYS. The nearest zone is about 10 miles away - and I get down to Long Island a couple of times each year. So, I will often have birds hanging that have been shot in an open zone even though the zone where I live may be closed. I see no requirement to tag birds that I shot in another zone.

4 ~ I clean all my birds at my own personal "abbattoir" here on the farm. I usually pluck and cut everything on the tailgate of my Honda Element - in a warm sun with a gentle breeze if I can arrange it - then leave the "racks" on a south-facing hillside where the crows and ravens can find them during the day and the foxes and coyotes can find them at night. (In a perfect world, I would return them to the marsh from whence they came.) I consider the carcasses out of my possession at this point.

5 ~ I fillet the breast meat out of all my birds - which is consistent with the health advisory published in our regs brochure. There have been a couple of very warm early-season hunts where we have been tempted to fillet the birds right in the boat - continuing to possess the "migratory game bird" with its head AND both fully-feathered wings until we got home. It raises the question: What constitutes the bird? (We have never pushed this one - but we have plucked the breasts just to cool the meat.) When the regs were originally crafted, virtually all waterfowl were plucked and roasted - and nobody had freezers.

These situations may be no more than "brain teasers" - useful for training young ECO recruits (and middle-aged Waterfowl Biologists). I have never had a bad experience with any law enforcement officer and have always been proud to work alongside them.

All the best,

SJS
 
Good points.... why are game checks acceptable and the norm? I guess they are sort of like sobriety stops on the Holidays? But I don't normally get stopped while driving to see if I have a license or that my insurance is paid? Why should we be stopped to see if we have complied with all aspect of the game laws if there was nothing done to establish doubt?
 
Tod~

To my mind, the license and gun/ammunition checks at the ramp - or in the field - do not represent searches - because we hunters elect to engage in a regulated activity (just as do landowners who secure a wetlands permit, for example) and should expect - and want - some level of compliance monitoring.

With respect to checking the bag, however, I believe (I'm not an ECO or Constitutional lawyer) it may be checked ONLY if in plain sight. Your boat, vehicle, "person" may be checked only with your consent OR with "probable cause" that you committed a crime. Here in the country, the same applies for posted lands - no entry without invitation or probable cause.

I have never had to address the "search" issue personally - because the "bag" is usually visible on the foredeck (because I hate to mess up these beautiful birds until I clean them). If the bag were not visible, I would give specific permission - to check the bag - and NOT to rummage through my boat, vehicle or person. If they wanted to go through my gear, I would first respectfully inquire as to the probable cause - and then respectfully withhold my permission.

Again, all of my experiences with law enforcement officers have been positive - and - with just a couple of comical exceptions over several decades - I have admired their professionalism. Nevertheless, I have a "zero tolerance" policy viz. the Bill of Rights.

This help?

SJS
 
According to the state laws here in Iowa (as I understand them) A person is required to show the officer the taken game/fish if asked. I do not believe the officer is authorized to search for the "bagged game" unless he has just cause to believe you have more than what you say you do or show to him.
Simply telling him you have no additional game is NOT just cause for a search. Now if you have been the only one on the marsh and he has watched ten duck fall from the sky, you can bet he has just cause to conduct a search.
 
No wonder Deer Hunting is number one. At our local NWR waterfowlers must arrive at a certain time, present all licenses, stamps, waterfowl ID certification, and HIP #, and draw for a spot to hunt. Then when Deer Season starts NO MORE waterfowling allowed! Do the Deer Hunters stand in line like sheep and draw for certain areas? NO. Do they have to present duck tamps, waterfowl ID and HIP #? NO. They just go in and HUNT...

I know this has nothing to do about the subject of this thread, but waterfowlers have to jump through more hoops, and obey more regulation than any other type of hunters on a broad basis.
 
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