a long way to next season

Rick L

Rick L

Well-known member
but a long search ended today

the back ground - even though I am a side by side guy, my mentor in duck hunting when i was young was a dedicated model 12 guy. I have thought for a while it would be nice to have one to hunt with once and a while to remember him- but i have purchased and returned several after finding out that in spite of the seller's claims, the guns were altered - chokes opened or bores honed

so - finally this one turns out to be a well enjoyed all original 32" solid ribbed model 12 heavy duck - hate to wish away my fly fishing - but can't wait until the next season


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You do not have to wait.

If it's all good, ya got yourself one of the best Turkey Swatters ever made. Just a damn shame the turkey population in NY is not so good.

3" shells may give you a problem, 2 3/4" shells not at all.

Bismuth shoots tighter than lead. When ya hit birds of any kind they know it, and so will you when ya pick em up.

Enjoy
 
I’ve always shot tungsten matrix. It shoots further than I can hit them.. Never thought about using in on gobblers. May have to do some load tests
 
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Vince Pagliaroli said:
You do not have to wait.

If it's all good, ya got yourself one of the best Turkey Swatters ever made. Just a damn shame the turkey population in NY is not so good.

3" shells may give you a problem, 2 3/4" shells not at all.

Bismuth shoots tighter than lead. When ya hit birds of any kind they know it, and so will you when ya pick em up.

Enjoy
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thanks Vince

for Ducks, I'll likely shoot a mix of Kent's bismuth early and their TM late- a friend who collects these say they digest the Kent 3" better.

might try it on turkeys - i was planning on trying out my British hammer ten- that patterns an ounce and a quarter of copper sixes at 92% out of both barrels
 
Good morning, Rick~

Congratulations on adding The Perfect Repeater to your arsenal! I hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine.

I've shot Model 12s since the early 80s. My "everyday" M12 12-gauge was built in 1925. It is chambered for 2 3/4-inch and its 30 inch barrel is choked full. Most of the bluing has long ago departed its nickel steel - but I plan to shoot it until my Last Hunt.

Kent Fasteel 3s work for me on both waterfowl and Spring Longbeards. (I use BBs on Canadas.)

All the best,

SJS

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Ned Schwing put together a choke constriction comparison chart for his book on the Browning Superposed. From what I recall, the guns of this interval were pretty tightly choked, measuring-in at the upper end of the constriction range per the actual choke constriction designation stamped on them. I am assuming this was a consequence of the wad designs and high percentage of "fliers" associated with lead shot production quality from this era.

Do you suspect that this played a role in the elevated percentage of guns you looked at that had been "opened up"? Since this gun already has a pad added, diminishing its worth as a collectable, and you state that its purchase was made with the intent to put it into current use, why not go with an earlier "discovery" that would pattern better with modern alternative alloys shotshells?
 
Good morning, Rick & RL~

FYI: We all patterned our duck guns and loads at a range a couple of years back (a good post=season exercise - if you pick a nice, early Spring day). It was a very useful process. I was pleased - but not really surprised - to see my M12/Fasteel 3s produce "text book" patterns at all ranges - out to 47 yards.

All the best,

SJS
 

When steel was mandated as a waterfowl load, Winchester offered guidance that in modified or more open choked Winchester Proof steel barrels that steel shot could be safely used. If your Model-12 says Nickel Steel then no you should not shoot steel shot. But if it is stamped Winchester Proof Steel on the barrel and is Mod choked then stick with number size shot short of BB and you will be fine.

Your gun, your call...
 
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RLLigman said:
Ned Schwing put together a choke constriction comparison chart for his book on the Browning Superposed. From what I recall, the guns of this interval were pretty tightly choked, measuring-in at the upper end of the constriction range per the actual choke constriction designation stamped on them. I am assuming this was a consequence of the wad designs and high percentage of "fliers" associated with lead shot production quality from this era.

Do you suspect that this played a role in the elevated percentage of guns you looked at that had been "opened up"? Since this gun already has a pad added, diminishing its worth as a collectable, and you state that its purchase was made with the intent to put it into current use, why not go with an earlier "discovery" that would pattern better with modern alternative alloys shotshells?
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to answer the second question first - many full choke guns were opened up in the 1980's when steel shot first came out- the first generation steel was hard on full choke guns

there were a lot of performance improvements in the production of shotshells in the early 1900's, and getting optimal patterns became a goal, many makers experiemented with back boring and extra long specially designed chokes

An unaltered Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck will have 35 thousands of constriction (as this one does) - they were choked after careful experimentation to take advantage of the newly designed Western Super-x long range short shotstring shells-

Several companies came out with guns meant to take advantage of the new technologies - Fox worked with Olin (manufactured Western shells) and Burt Becker to design and bore the grade HE Super Fox, this led to field tests with Nash Buckingham (when he had to return the test gun, he ordered the Super Fox that became known as Bo Whoop) LC Smith came out with the Long Range, Parker came out with advertisements that said they had always bored guns for long range performance. My Super is one of the early overbored ones with chokes in the mid 40's - My Smith Long Range is nearly as tight as is my 3 frame Parker 12

Winchester claimed 70% patterns - Fox originally said the Super would give over an 80% pattern - but later, realized they could not control the quality of the shell the customer used, so they dropped the claim from the advertisements and stamped the water table "not guaranteed" which has confused the uninitiated ever since.

a friend did a great article about pattern performance on these old waterfowling guns - it was in the Autumn 2017 issue of Double Gun Journal - he used unmodified guns with Kent's bismuth and TM in the tests- most gun/shell combinations could still produce patterns in the 70% or more range - the article is an interesting read if you like these old pieces of ducking history-
 
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Which is pretty standard constriction for a full choke...succinctly. Pretty tight for anything beyond pass shooting in-light of the improvements made in powders, loads, and wad technology. I would have leveraged the altered choke measurements into a better purchase price for a "shooter".
 
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RLLigman said:
Which is pretty standard constriction for a full choke...succinctly. Pretty tight for anything beyond pass shooting.
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.035 in the model 12- yes text book full - the 45 to 48 constriction in the Super is, well- super tight

but these chokes are more than the muzzle measurements- some of the specialty duck guns have chokes that begin over 5 inches from the muzzle. and some in conjunction with back boring

the heavy duck is designed with a long slow taper which ends in a short (about a half inch) parallel section at the muzzle - i don't pretend to understand the science - but the goal (which i think was achieved) was consistent even tight pattern

i use my Super over decoys - as do several of the guys I hunt with - although it will reach out if required
 
Forcing cone distance, yes. Back boring in that era?

I shoot an IC or an IM, seldom opting for anything tighter. I like to eat what I shoot, intact!
 
RLLigman said:
Forcing cone distance, yes. Back boring in that era?

I shoot an IC or an IM, seldom opting for anything tighter. I like to eat what I shoot, intact!
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yes - the Becker boring was a combination of back boring and long chokes, he was doing it in the 1920's and did not originate it - its an old concept - it just took the advances in shotshell technology (including progressive burning powders)

and yes - I eat what i shoot- recovered intact

these were shot - over decoys- with my Super (that Parker is a 20, also extra full)- dead in the water with exit wounds
to each their own- I do well with my choice


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Rick

What year was your Heavy Duck Gun built?

Serial # tells the tale.


The problem with many new 3" shells, is that the guns were built for paper shells, and empty plastic 3" shells can get hung up.


My guess it that there is enough quality steel in a Model 12 Heavy Duck Gun, to build at least 2 or 3 of today's "Shootguns".


It takes a man and a boy to carry them far walking for turkeys, but it sure is worth it.

They put XX's in turkeys eyes. Don't need no camo gun either. It's good to go just the way it is.

Wing shooting turkey and any other birds. It's a heavy gun, that needs kick started, but once it's moving you will not stop the gun and your hitting percentage will go way up.


IF NY ever has a Dove Season. For late season November & December, much smarter, farther out doves. Feed your Heavy Duck, AA 7 1/2 Heavy Trap Loads, pick your shots and fill your limit.

You may think that your over gunned, but ya ain't.

It's a long time between flights in the colder late season. When they come they come in flocks, and ya want a shotgun that makes three shots count.

You got yourself WAY more than a waterfowl gun there.


Find yourself a Model 12, 16ga. mod. plain barrel, and ya got one fine upland & duck gun that carries and shoots like a dream.

Model !2's, with the Corn Cob, put yer hands exactly where they should be.
 
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