hybrid black

M

mikeNHBayhunter

Member
I shot my first hybrid black on the 3 days before the end of the season. I ran into a fish and game officer down by the bay while talking to another hunter. I asked him what it goes under, I said it isn't a black duck if it has mallard characteristics. He called back that day and confirmed that it would go towards the other duck daily limit. Wish I thought of taking a picture and posting it here. Sorry

Mike
 
We shot one last year on a permit hunt here at the Mattamaskeet National Refuge. We had two federal wardens check us on the way out, so we posed the same question. His first response was, "what did you shoot it as?". To which we responded, "a black duck". After some talking they said it either had to count as a black or a mallard and they would let it go as what wouldn't be detrimental to you. That is, if you had 4 mallards (the limit here) and shot it as a black, thats what it would be. However, if you had 3 mallards and a black already in the bag, it would count as a mallard. I really think it should count towards your overall "duck" limit like the CO there said, since the reality of it is, its neither.

BRad
 
I'm not sure what the law is, but I know that two different wardens who;ve checked us in Maine have told us that hybrids did NOT count towards our black duck limit of one. We've never been close enough to a limit of mallards to make an issue of whether it counted as a mallard :(

I tend to think it should not count towards either the mallard or black duck limit, but that may take you straight to jail if your local warden feels differently.
 
View attachment DSC00973 - Copy.JPGView attachment DSC00972 - Copy.JPGHere is a pair of hybrids I shot about 5 years ago. I was doing the wing survey that year, and the results I got back were interesting I thought. the first picture is of the drake and you can see some green in its head. If you had looked at the duck from the top of the head, it was even more apparent. The second picture is a wing shot of the hen. This is what I saw and why I shot them both. Tthe faint top white line above the speculum is faint as is the usual white line below it, but I could see them both when these two ducks came in. The hen came back as a mallard, and the drake as a black duck. I have shot probably 8-10 of these birds over the years. I am not really sold on the mallard crowding out the black duck genes. Most of these ducks retain more black duck characteristics than mallard. I hunt in an area of very heavy black duck concentrations with not very many mallards. All of the hybrids I have shot have behaved like black ducks in terms of wariness, just one or two ducks together, etc...
 
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Being one who got busted on this a couple years back - you have to be very careful. Not everyone knows the laws and not all ID a duck the same way. The biggest problem with shooting a black duck hybrid comes into play when you have a hen mallard in that mix of birds. The State is under the obligation to prove the mix breed is both a mallard or Black duck AND, and a hen. The AND is the important part.

When I went to court I kept trying to impress upon the judge (who was not a duck hunter nor even close to knowing anything about ducks) that what I was being accused of the State couldn't prove. They could prove it was a hen, but they couldn't prove it was a pure mallard (at least I don't think they presented any evidence/information along these lines). The judge justed wanted to see the difference between a drake mallard and hen mallard so he could find me guilty of having more than one hen mallard. I was never disputing the fact that the birds was male or female, I was jsut disputing the fact of it being a mix duck or mallard. If it was a mix duck like I said, it didn't matter if it was male or female but the judge saw differently.

What I'm saying is that the CO can say whatever he wants but when you get in front of a judge, you will lose. I've changed my hunting because of this and count any hybrids as the bird that is considered the stricker of whatever is being considered. For example, if I shoot a Mallard cross Black -
I automatically count it as a hen mallard as I am only allowed one of those. Should another fly in, or a Black fly in, it lives to see another day.

Mark W
 
I can't believe the game warden busted you for that. You would think they have better things to do. But were i in your shoes I am sure I would do what you are doing now. That is a very unfortunate experience. And that game warden really has too much time on his/her hands.
 
I can't believe the game warden busted you for that. You would think they have better things to do. But were i in your shoes I am sure I would do what you are doing now. That is a very unfortunate experience. And that game warden really has too much time on his/her hands.
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COs are all over the place on this issue. I once talked to a regional director that said that all hybrids count as hen mallards. His response to my polite WTF?!?!? was "what do you want me to say, my guys can't be expected to tell them all apart".

T
 
Wow, counting them as hen mallards would triple our bag on many days. I've never gotten the same answer twice, once I asked a federal warden (real nice guy too) and he admitted that it's up to the discretion (and attitude) of the CO involved. Unless theres a lot of green sheen on the head, I count it as a black.
 
Here is one from this year. I counted it as a Black to be safe. Top of head was pretty green. No lower speculum bar???
157014_180419091987816_100000591806724_558337_797870_n.jpg

 
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Me too, and I did, but a warden who checked me called it a hybrid and told me that ANY white on the speculum was a sign of a hybrid.

Will the next warden think the same? Who knows.

It's a fuzzy line, and even the technical papers I see
(to the extent I understand them) suggest the situation is not all that clear.

Even harder--how do you tell a Barrow's goldeneye hen from a common GE? In my state, the Barrow's is state listed as threatened and not legal to kill.

And the same agency tells me it's not possible for an angler to tell a brook trout from a "blueback trout", which is a landlocked Arctic char found in a handful of ponds up here, so they both count towards your brook trout bag.

Go figure!
 
I would count Joe's bird as a mallard. If I am unlucky enough to get checked by a warden that day, and they disagree with me, then that's the way it is. Any white on the top of the speculum makes it not a black duck(to me). Besides the fact that that duck has a lot of mallard feathers and butt, wings, green on the head. That decision gets to be a personal one, and I don't think either way is wrong.
 
Greg,

You obviously don't hunt in a state where any "game violation" is an automatic loss of hunting, fishing & trapping rights for a year. Hybrids scare the heck out of me and no way I'd take a second hen mallard or a black after taking one unless it looked very black or had a very green head. The penalty just isn't worth the risk/benefit of adding another bird to the bag.

Scott
 
I appreciate what you're saying Scott. New Jersey is pretty strict on everything. I am just at a point in my life where the threat of a legal action over nonsense won't deter me from doing something that is perfectly legal and ethical. Truthfully, if I was in a situation like Joe described and hearing what happened to him, I would hire a lawyer, I would hire an ornithologist from Rutgers, I would spend the money to try and make a bumbling idiot out of the person that was bringing the violation over a hybrid duck, which I really don't think would be that hard to do. Of course, that doesn't guarantee success, and I would be poorer for it. But the likelihood of that happening is extremely low. The fact that this discussion has to take place illustrates the stupidity that you can encounter over a game law. And we are talking about a duck here, not 100 ducks over the limit, not baiting, not shooting park geese so you can get some bands. This just should not be a serious issue. And any game warden that writes somebody a ticket over this should be challenged, because the truth of the matter is, they are not doing it at that point to protect the resource. They are doing it because they think it is cute to try and pull a technical issue on somebody or to just plain bust someone's chops because they can. And since most game wardens are pretty smart and often nice folks, most of them know not to bother. But if you constantly accept this kind of behavior from public servants because you fear their ability to give you a hard time, you get further and further limited in how you go and have a little fun. I get it if you wouldn't take my approach or go through the trouble it might take to see something like this through in the very unlikely event that it happened. But I am willing to push back now on stupidity whereas I might have just accepted it in the past. The myth is that this type of behavior is monolithic and you can't do anything about it.
 
Greg,

Can't say I agree with everything you wrote although parts I do agree with. Ethics are a set of personal beliefs so everyone's are different based on their experience. I personally don't hold hybrids as any less desirable than a "pure" breed. In fact I personally don't believe there is such a thing as a pure bred because I believe in evolution and that they came from common ancestors who have probably cross bred randomly over the last few hundred thousand generations. If it looks like a black and I shot it as a black, my ethics tell me its a black, and I shouldn't shoot another. If it looked like a hen mallard in flight when I shot it, I'm happy to count it as a hen. If it has substantial green on it's head, I call it an immature drake mallard. If it falls midway between a hen black and mallard, I choose not to take a chance, and I consider it as both a black and as my second hen as it isn't worth the hassle to defend myself in court. Conservation Officers come from different backgrounds and my experience is that most are not serious waterfowlers and few, if any are waterfowl biologists. In our area they are stretched very thin due to the poor economy and if they find you in what they believe to be a violation they will cite you. Talking your way out is tough because day in & day out they are lied to making them very jaded.

With respect to getting experts and taking it to court, go for it, it's only money and time. Of course you won't have the duck in hand for your experts and if you followed Mark W.'s story the judge may not even be interested in tying up his court. He'll simply follow the concept that if the CO says it looked enough like the duck he wrote the citation for, it must have been one. In that case here in CT you won't hunt or fish for a year. But it is your right to try, personally I'm not going to intentionally put myself in this position.

One additional comment, while pushing the limits can preserve your rights, it can also result in the rewriting of rules to legally clarify the situations the cause everyone to loose out. For instance, while not likely, it is possible that if enough stink was made over the definition of black to mallard hen divide, a state could simply say your allowed a single hen mallard, mallard cross or black duck in the bag. There by guaranteeing that no one will take more than one black duck and they won't have to go into court and waste their valuable time. Don't think it happens? How about all the areas around the northeast coast closed to hunting because guys pushed the limits and pissed off the home owners. While the hunters were legal, maybe by not pushing the limits we all would have been better off.

So follow your personal ethics and push the limits, but be aware of any consequences and be willing to pay the cost.

Respectfully,
Scott
 
Not much to else to add, but these are a couple of best looking mallard/black hybrids we have taken. One last year and one this year.

2009 season

IMG_1185.jpg


Turned into this

cid_1_2946380124web1109_biz_mail_sk.jpg


2010 season

IMG_1894.jpg

 
its a shame realy,, here in black duck heaven ,we have the invading horde of double curls,showing up more and more,it seems we are shooting alot more hybreds here and they are alot bigger then normal black ducks,almost looks like its been in the nuke plant run off ponds...,one was all black not a hint of MAL ard except it had twin curls ,no white no green just the curls,and ive noticed the heads are exceptionally large why ?? im not sure but i can tell you its not for brains,, i did tell you we are shooting lots of them right! they are not as smart as our beloved black duck.

we have shot lots of partial green heads and whites on the wings but in general they are alot bigger bird.. and like you unless you let them land in and have a look at them there blacks shoot em,, tho we have more full limits now adays as the hybreds make up the other 2 birds in a 6 bird limit..and they taste the same ....so far

shermie...
 
This is a real problem area as each state CO interpretation is different. It would be nice if USFWS wood make definitions that states could apply equally. Also, if your are returning from Canada with a bird that meets their definition of what this bird should classified as, will it be a problem if your are checked at the border. I feel sorry for Mark with is run in with a judge. If the judge did not understand the problem, he probably was not willing to set a precedent by ruling in Mark's favor.

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