Idea for first gun

Tom Scholberg

Tom Scholberg

Well-known member
I don't know why I even thought of this but during one of my long mindless commutes to work I had a thought regarding a new hunters first gun. I don't have kids but I do teach firearms safety classses. I really hate exposed hammer guns for kids, even adults have trouble decocking sometimes. Also recoil is always a problem whether anyone admits it or not. I am beginning to think the ideal first shotgun is a 20 ga. gas auto loader with one minor extra piece. That would be a plug that would completely block the magazine. Then you wouldn't have to hand a kid each shell, the recoil would be reduced due to the gas gun part and after each shot it would be open and the whole world could see it was safe. It would teach use of the safety and bolt release on a gun they could grow into with out having to relearn the operation. I generally am not a fan of autos but this case makes sense to me, what do you all think???
 
I think you may be over thinking it. Unless you are talking about taking a kindergardner bird hunting. Most kids are not as big of pussys as their parents think they are, or let them be. My first gun was a 22 and then a 22/410 O/U made by savage. When I was 10 or 11 yrs old I got a Win 1200 20ga pump.

I am not a fan of auto loaders for youth mostly for the fact that a misplaced finger can be badly damaged if the release button is accidently hit. That is why I like pumps....... this slides forward and this closes. They can see a cause and effect and dont have to worry about accidntily hitting a button or switch.

Get them out to plink with a 22 a couple times. Move up to the 20 ga pump w/ 2 3/4" shells.
 
Ditto the 20 ga. pump. I bought a Rem. 870 20 ga. full size for my daughter and then my son (he was 9). At that age, he wasn't going to swing much but just as the birds landed or took off. He would prop the barrel on the blind or on a shooting stick if we were on a river baknk. By 12, he was swinging it with the rest of us. He is 13 now and wanting a 12 ga this summer when he turns 14 'cause all his buddies shoot 12's 2 3/4. He can handle it and I will probably get one for him. The full size 20 will be for my daughter to use when she is home from college or my wifes (if I can get her out of bed into the cold). A youth 20 will always be that - for a youth and they grow out of them quick!
 
If money is irrelevant, then yes I'd vote for the 20ga gas auto. I wouldn't be too worried about the full length plug - you are willing to trust the kid with a loaded firearm, but the kid isn't trustworthy to load the number of shells you instruct? I started with a 20ga 1100 and Dad said two shells max. I could have put a third in, but then I would have been in deep doo doo and wouldn't have gotten to go with the next time, or next several times.

For practical purposes, I'm an 870 man. But I'd probably still recommend an 1100 for starters.

Bottom line, if you are starting a shooter with a gun that's too long in the stock, it's gonna kick too much. Most high school and adult women should be shooting full length stocks.

NR
 
First on the recoil issue- I absolutly agree that the gun needs to fit or it will kick the crap out of a kid. Probably the best reason for a 20 ga is that it will get the job done if the shooter does theirs and the less bulk of the smaller guage will let them handle the gun and hit something. If recoil is a problem, learn to reload light weight loads or add weight to the gun or better recoil pad. I do understand the hornets nest that I am poking but if a kid can't handle the gun due to poor fit or weight they should be just along for the experience of being there. Minn. has just lowered the age for deer hunting and at the same time allowed .223's. I do not agree with this (my humble opinion). Years do not make maturity. Some kids can do well, some not.
Second, If any of you think I am not a pump guy you should see the 870's in my gun room. The ONLY reason I suggested a gas gun is because so many people complain about recoil. The cause and effect of a pump is a whole lot easier to teach than a "Push this button and pull the trigger" of an autoloader. My big concern with a magazine full in an auto is doubling and/or forgetting to put the safety back on. Yes, they should know better but that doesn't stop it from happening. My main point was to get away from those hateful single shots with exposed hammers. Thanks for the responses and don't let this thread become a pissing match (you know who), this should just be an exchange of the best practices with the safety of all foremost.
And the issue of an auto bolt taking the end of a finger off needs to be considered too.
 
Tom, I bought my son,who is 7 years old a Stoeger o/u 20 gauge very reasonable,not much kick with light loads,he loves shooting it,no complaints or flinching,hope this helps Brian Rippelmeyer
 
Tom I think you have it right. My father bought my son one of the first 20 gauge lightweight 1100s when they first came out. I shortened the stock and put a recoil pad on it. He still owns the gun and hunts with it on occasion. He bought a replacement stock for it and kept the cut down one. His son (my grandson) used it until he was big enough for a 12 gauge. I did plug the gun to where it only held one shell at a time for the first season. The second season I changed that to the standard plug and invested heavily in 20 gauge steel shot handloads. Today he lives in Pennsylvania and hunts ducks and geese regularly.

I started out with a 12 gauge Winchester model 37 single shot with a tiny hammer. I never had an accident, but since I had such difficulty cocking it I often cocked when the birds first appeared and forgot to let the hammer down. Since I was "antsy" and didn't sit still too well my dad and uncle would often leave me in the boat with a pair of dekes while they waded some distance away for the best spot. Florida was full of ducks back then so I rather enjoyed hunting alone.

Best regards,
Frank
 
Brian, I haven't had any experience with those but it seems to be a good one. The safety of an open OU cannot be missed. For bird hunting I use a 20 ga. Browning White Lightning and probably shoot it better than any other gun I own. But way too pretty to let my lab use it for traction in the bottom of the boat. I think that is the one Eric P got for his son.
 
I don't know why I even thought of this but during one of my long mindless commutes to work I had a thought regarding a new hunters first gun. I don't have kids but I do teach firearms safety classses. I really hate exposed hammer guns for kids, even adults have trouble decocking sometimes. Also recoil is always a problem whether anyone admits it or not. I am beginning to think the ideal first shotgun is a 20 ga. gas auto loader with one minor extra piece. That would be a plug that would completely block the magazine. Then you wouldn't have to hand a kid each shell, the recoil would be reduced due to the gas gun part and after each shot it would be open and the whole world could see it was safe. It would teach use of the safety and bolt release on a gun they could grow into with out having to relearn the operation. I generally am not a fan of autos but this case makes sense to me, what do you all think???
Click to expand...

Tom, you are a genius! In actuality I was just involved in this discussion on another waterfowling oriented message board and I agree 100% that a gas operated 20 ga. semi-auto with a youth stock is the optimum youth/starter gun. The 1100/11-87 series from Remington being ideal in my mind.
 
Tom,
Your question,as I understand it, is not what is best for a new hunter in a hunting family but what might be better in a class where you may have children from non hunting families. Some of whom may have reluctant parents.
For several years I was a Hunter Ed instructor. We were supplied by the state with one of the horrid exposed hammer single shots that kicked like mule. Instead we used 2 1100s, a 20 and a 28 both plugged as single shots and both with cut down stocks.
The reduction in flinching for first time shooters was dramatic and I believe helped encourage them to pursue our sport.
 
DeWayne, Thanks for the kind words. The really new part to this idea was plugging it to one shot. As you can see from Lee's post it is not a new idea.
Lee, I wasn't really asking a question as just laying out an idea and as you said it is not a brand new one. Those exposed hammers really are horrible. I once saw a young guy walking through a Cabellas with his new gun and th hammer was full cock. I don't know how he was allowed to carry the gun through the store but it is one of those events that pushed me into Firearms Safety training. Thanks for your work training the kids and recruiting safe hunters.
 
I've gone this route having three boys. I started with a 410 but being full choke it was too hard for them to hit anything. Then I went to a 28 NEF which came in modified. The same day I took it out of the box they broke birds, gained confidence, and moved up to an 1187 12ga with a youth stock. I don't think a 20 auto will kick noticeably less than a 12 auto. Unless you want a new gun or they're really small just give them a 12.

Frank
 
Tom,
I think you have nailed it. I take new youths out every season as well and new adults. I always hated the fact that an auto is ready to go bank again and again without any thought by the shooter. Of course the reduction in recoil is the big positive for them. I think you have come up with a great solution for teaching a youngster or oldster to shoot a shotgut safely for the first time. It takes lots and lots of repetition before that safety becomes automatic and the feeling of the safety while sitting in the blind as well.
 
I bought a single barrelled 20 ga. for my son when he was 9. We went shooting one PM and after he had fired about seven or 8 rounds his eyes were starting to tear up. Thought I had raised a wuss until I shot the little gun myself. Man did that thing kick like a mule. I immediately took him to the gunshop and purchased a youth model 1100. Problem solved. He shot targets and doves and even a few waterfowl that season including a Tundra Swan. Thge Swan was longer than he was tall. The following season he killed a spike buck with it (#3 buckshot). While I shot a single barrelled 12 ga. as my first gun and graduated to an 870 recoil was never a problem for me. Best thing I did for his shooting was to get him that little 1100 20 Ga. Probably would have bought a 28 Ga. but at that time you couldn't get non toxic shot for a 28. A year or so following I bought and old 1100 12 gauge and had it cut to fit him and had after market choke tubes put in the 23" barrell. He made some amazing shots with the cut down 12 Ga. and we were off to the races. Nowadays I think the gun he liked the best of all was that little youth model 20 Ga. I definitely reccomend that gun for a new young shooter.
Best,
Harry
 
My first gun was an 870 20 gauge that is sitting in the corner after I used it yesterday. Shot lots of ducks and geese with it this season. It's a 2 3/4 and works great. I'm glad I have that gun because it is truly timeless. But, I have 5 kids and my gun case includes a very old single shot 20 that is too long for the kids and a youth 870 that is too heavy for my kids still. So, after reading Eric's comments about the Stoeger O/U I'm definatley going to invest in one because they are very reasonable and it will get lots of use for at least another 12 years or so. Brian's comments confirm this as well. Seems like a great gun, it's safe, economical and the kids seem to enjoy shooting it.
 
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The advantage of a 20ga 1100 over a similar 12ga is the lighter weight. It's much easier for a beginning shooter to get comfortable and learn to swing with a 7 lb gun than an 8.5 lb gun. Particularly if they be smaller in stature.

NR
 
The full length plug thing is starting to get to me. Overthinking, I'll admit. But here's how I see it. As the mentor you have to cultivate responsibility - self control, if you will - within the shooter. So you provide a gun capable of holding three shells and tell the shooter - one shell at a time. Regardless of whether you think the gun has one shell in it or three, you will be watching the shooter to ensure safe handling. If the shooter can't handle the responsibility of following the mentor's instructions, then the lesson is over and another lesson is learned.

I can't put it to words gracefully, but its something like this: if the beginner sees that you trust him/her to do the right thing even while giving him/her the option of doing the wrong thing, they will become responsible much faster and it will hopefully become a life lesson as well as a shooting lesson.

NR
 
Jay,
The Stoeger O/U is a good idea. Stay away from the stoeger autos as they have had tons of trouble with them.

Good luck,
Harry
 
My view for youth would 28 gauge over under or side by side. Hammers Hammers. That issue some of the guns that have hammers are poorly designed. No issue with that. However hunting with some one who has a hammer on his gun. There is no doubt weather or not it is on safe. A young hunter can easily be corrected on that issue from twenty feet away. Even a older hunter.. With button safeties or slide safeties not so easy. Hence barrel control..... The most important rule.

Years ago when the most prevalent gun had a hammer. I hunted with eight to fourteen people all except one had hammers on there guns. In eight years with that group no gun ever discharged accidentally. That is loading and unloading some time several times a day. Since then twice, I have been around a gun accidentally going off. Neither case had a hammer...

Again the case for barrel control.

This just one point of view, but if I were hunting with some one for the first time I would prefer that they had a hammer on there gun, because I would be looking to see if it was on safe.

An to all those of you who are taking the time to train young people in the safety of guns THANK YOU
 
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