Payload vs. Speed

Carl

Well-known member
Staff member
We haven't had a good debate on shotgun shells lately. Duck season is coming faster than we know it & we are all thinking about ordering supplies, so here goes:

Higher Payload or Higher Speed??

Give the choice between the two loads below, with the same mfg., same size shot, same shot material and a negligible price difference per box, and same hunting situation, which one do you chose & why?

12 gauge, 3", 1 1/4 oz loads at 1400 fps (more shot but slower).

or

12 gauge, 3", 1 1/8 oz loads at 1550 fps (less shot but faster).


I am debating changing loads but I am not going to tell you which one I use now & which one I am thinking about ordering until I get some responses!
 
I'm a speed guy but really anything over 1400 is going to kill most ducks at the range most of us should shoot them at.
I shoot 2 3/4" 1 1/16oz 1550's so that should tell you which one I would choose. If the pattern is right it doesn't matter if there is 1/8th oz more shot. Moving to one shot size smaller lets you keep close to the same shot count. I shoot 3's when I can find them.
I shoot a gun that is tightly choked so if you like a more open choke then I'd think about going with the higher payload.

Tim
 
Neither matter!!!

It's all about "shot placement."

It's like asking the question, which would kill you more?

A .22cal or a 44mag? LOL LOL LOL
 
Neither matter!!!

It's all about "shot placement."

It's like asking the question, which would kill you more?

A .22cal or a 44mag? LOL LOL LOL


I find it easier to connect with a faster load. Makes up a little bit for poor swing and follow through. Although I'm also backing off my loads to reduce recoil and help with flinch and follow through as well. Bottom line is hitting the duck is #1. If you look back at the old stanby lead loads and compare to some of todays cannon fodder, it's ridiculous. The early steel loads made us think we needed super heavy loads. I prefer a denser pellet and lighter load. But to answer the question, all else being the same, I want the faster load.

Gene
 
anyone have any good recipes for tungsten/iron 3'' #2s. I've got about 5lbs of it i think left. I wouldn't mind making a box of roman candles.
 
Neither,

A load that puts 105 pellets evenly in the circle at the distance you hit your birds will kill ducks dead.
For my 40 yd limit that is a 7\8 oz load of 3's at 1490fps. Kills mallard size ducks every time I get it on one of them,,,,,, Grave Yard Dead.
For smaller birds like teal and woodys 4 or 5 shot is plenty and it gives some more cushion in the outer edges of the pattern, but if you center one inside 30 yds its a lot of shot. Mine get loaded in a 2 and 3\4 Rem skeet hull with an RSI wad. But factory loads can be had in close numbers.

The thing is the more weight you have in the load the more recoil and If 7\8 gets the 100 pellets then why pound yourself with 1 and 1\8.

A 4 foot piece of butchers paper or white tablecloth plastic will give you a lot of info.

If you are interested find Tom Rosters articles on his CONSEP research and shot size and pattern requirements to kill with steel. The shot placement is way more important, and undervalued, by most of us part time shotgunners.

Now, just for the fun of it I love shooting a SxS 10 ga with a roman candle, 3 1\2 inches long but that gun weighs over 10 pounds.

http://www.oregonlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2007/10/wanted_straight_shooters.html


http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/shotgunpatterning.htm
 
Fun topic, assuming you don't get goose opportunities I'd select the [font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]12 gauge, 3", 1 1/8 oz loads at 1550 fps in #3s.

If Canada geese where in the area, I'd be shooting the 1-1/4 @1400 in #2s. Heck where I hunt a lot, I'm as likely to shoot geese as ducks so I load 3-1/2" 1.38oz @1500 fps BBs until my two geese are in the bag. 1.38 oz provides dense enough patterns for the ducks and for me, itdoes a significantly better job on geese. Note, geese are typically at 30 to 40 yards. 2s work, but I end up with more strong swimmers and on the river that can be trouble. Feet down inside 30 and the 2's work really well but leave more shot in the breast than BBs do.

GOOSE OPENS the 1st of Sept. here in CT, guess where I'll be on the first? 28 more days!

Scott


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I know this sounds like a "chicken out" answer, but it might be time to buy a box or two of each and head for the pattern board.

You might find out that the 1 1/4 ounce loads pattern better through an IC choke than the 1 1/8 through IC or Modified, or vice versa. If it really doesn't matter, then let the gun decide.

If the patterns are the same and everything else is relatively so, I'd take a little more payload over the extra speed; over the decoys, I don't think the 1550 is going to kill "deader" than 1400.
 
I went thru the forced lead to steel change. ( kinda dates me don't it) early factory shells had heavy payloads & slow MV. Hand loads speed them up & they worked much better. 1400fps works well for me, I shoot a 3'' 1 1/4oz 2shot late season & #4 early. I can get same speed in 2 3/4'' 1 1/8oz. same manufacture, these kill much better than heavier payloads. Somthing I'v found out is pick a speed/load & stick with it, get used to the lead with that load & centered hits go up. Jumping around with different MV changes the lead needed. Patteren both & stick with the 1 patterens best.
Dennis
 
Good article. Shotgun Shell Ballistics & Penetration
December 17, 2008 by Chris Hustad

Leave a comment
By Marvin McDonald ( J J Mac )
I have investigated the effect of shot size and velocity on penetration in waterfowl. I decided to publish the results because others might be interested as well.
The recommendation most commonly encountered in the DHC Forums for adequate penetration for clean kills with steel shot is a velocity of 575 fps or 600 fps for all shot sizes. The implication is that all shot sizes penetrate to the same depth if the velocity is the same for all sizes. Then “maximum kill distances” are obtained from ballistics data corresponding to either 575 or 600 fps. A constant-velocity rule-of-thumb for equivalent penetration by all shot sizes is very simple and therefore desirable but it is well known that all shot sizes do not penetrate the same at a given velocity and thus this rule can’t be technically correct.
For example, people use large shot for Giant Canadas because the large shot penetrates more than small shot at the same velocity. This results in cleaner kills whereas smaller shot works great for smaller waterfowl because of better pattern density and a lesser amount of penetration. Also, hunters use buckshot to kill deer and other large game and police and military personnel use buckshot to stop bad guys. This is due to the penetration of the buckshot which will stop and/or kill the larger targets. Smaller shot size will not penetrate on a consistent basis, at least at normal ranges.
I will show later in this article that the velocity – diameter relationship for equivalent penetration is D2 V2 = D1 V1 for two different pellet sizes of the same density.
Penetration through vital organs is necessary and anything more than that is not needed. However, many hunters think it is desirable for shot to have adequate penetration to exit waterfowl so that one does not chomp down on steel shot at the dinner table.
In what follows, the shot is assumed to be spherical and non-deformable.
More on the 600 fps Rule
The Shotshell Ballistics (SSB) software by Ed Lowry and Keith Garner can be used to obtain the penetration of different shot sizes at any velocity. Pellet Penetration output is the number of inches that the pellet penetrates into ballistic gelatin and is based on experimental data. Unlike the heterogeneous nature of waterfowl (feathers, skin, bone, organs, muscle, etc), ballistic gelatin is a homogeneous material that is made up and calibrated before each use and is used under specified conditions so that reproducible results are obtained. The following table shows the penetration of steel pellets of various sizes at 600 fps from the SSB software.
[inline shotgun-shell-ballistics1.JPG ]
As expected, the penetration at 600 fps varies significantly for different shot sizes. For example, T pellets penetrate 2.6 times as much as #7 pellets, 1.6 times as much as #3 pellets, and 24% more than B pellets.
Ducks - SSB Software for Constant Penetration by Different Shot Sizes
Now, let’s see what the SSB program gives for the velocities and distances for equivalent penetration when shooting shot sizes appropriate for ducks. For this purpose, I will assume that #3 steel shot at 600 fps has an appropriate penetration for the type shooting that will be done. This is a completely arbitrary selection at this point just to illustrate the method and the deviation from the 600 fps rule-of-thumb. From Table 1, the penetration in ballistic gelatin for #3 shot at 600 fps is 1.28 inches so that will be the penetration used for all the different shot sizes. Since all the shot sizes will have the same penetration in ballistic gelatin they will also have the same average penetration performance in waterfowl even though it will be different than the ballistic gelatin penetration of 1.28 inches. Of course, the heterogeneous nature of a duck will dictate that the penetration will not always be exactly the same for any two pellets that penetrate in different locations so we are talking average values here. I cover the large range from #7 shot up to B shot just to see the effect even though the most commonly used steel shot sizes for ducks are #4 - #2.
[inline shotgun-shell-ballistics2.JPG ]
The 600 fps rule-of-thumb gives distances for that are too far for pellet sizes smaller than #3 and too close for the pellets larger than #3. Note also that the velocity required for 1.28 inches penetration in ballistic gelatin varies greatly for the different diameter shot from 847 fps at the smallest size shown to 501 fps for B shot.
Geese - SSB Software for Constant Penetration by Different Shot Sizes
Here is a look at loads commonly used for geese. Steel BBs at 600 fps (ballistic gelatin penetration = 1.80 inches) are used as the base case for demonstration purposes.
[inline shotgun-shell-ballistics4.JPG ]
Again, the 600 fps rule-of-thumb gives distances that are too large for the smaller pellet sizes (< BB) and too small for the larger pellet sizes (>BB). Also, the velocities vary significantly from 713 fps for #2 shot to 547 fps for T shot.
The Momentum Density Penetration (MDP) Equation
I also took a look at momentum density to see if it could be used to correlate penetration. Momentum density is defined as the pellet momentum (mass x velocity) divided by its cross-sectional area. There is a correlation. If the momentum density is the same for two different size pellets of the same density, the penetration is the same. Simplification results in:
D V = constant for a given amount of ballistic gelatin penetration where D is the diameter of the shot and V is its velocity. Thus, when comparing two different pellet sizes of the same density material, we get
D2 V2 = D1 V1 or V2 = (D1/ D2) V1 “MDP Equation”
In other words, if subscript 1 is for the smaller pellet and subscript 2 is for the larger pellet, for the same penetration the velocity of the larger pellet is reduced from the velocity of the smaller pellet by the ratio D1/ D2. This equation was checked for steel shot and gives the same velocities as obtained from the SSB software using constant ballistic gelatin penetration numbers. It clearly shows the effect that pellet size has on velocity for equal penetration. The MDP equation can be used for shot of different densities too but both pellets 1 and 2 must have the same density.
Shotgun Shell Ballistics & Penetration Summary
This study confirms that the 600 fps rule-of-thumb for steel shot does not give constant penetration for all shot sizes and thus gives erroneous results for maximum killing distances. Of course, we knew this from the start. Certainly you can find a shot size where the “rule” is pretty close, e.g., #3 shot at 600 fps (1.28 in. ballistic gelatin penetration) looks pretty good for ducks and BB shot at 600 fps (1.80 in. ballistic gelatin penetration) looks pretty good for large geese but it would be erroneous to say that two different pellet sizes of the same density have the same penetration when the two velocities are the same.
The SSB software can be used to calculate the velocity and distance for equivalent penetration by shot of different sizes. This calculation can be made for two shot sizes of the same density or the two can be of different density. This is the procedure to follow. For load 1, using the Pellet Penetration page, determine the penetration in ballistic gelatin corresponding to the velocity (or distance) that the load gives the type of performance you prefer. This field performance data can be from your own experience or from the CONSEP Chart or from other sources. Knowing this penetration, open another Pellet Penetration page and find the velocity and distance corresponding to this same penetration using the inputs for the second load. Altitude and temperature adjustments can be made by the software.
The MDP equation can be used for calculating the velocity of one pellet size with the same penetration as another pellet size at a given velocity also if the densities of the two are the same. Then the SSB software can be used to calculate the distance corresponding to that velocity.
One could argue that even though penetration is the same for two pellet sizes, some performance difference may be seen because the wound channel is bigger for the larger pellets and more damage will result. I don’t know how much of an effect this is but suspect it is pretty small if the difference in shot sizes is not large and is bigger when the two pellet sizes differ a lot.
Even though this has been about penetration, pattern density is very important also. For a centered pattern, you must have both adequate penetration and enough pattern density to hit vital organs in order to make clean, consistent kills on waterfowl.

View attachment shotgun-shell-ballistics1.JPG
View attachment shotgun-shell-ballistics2.JPG
View attachment shotgun-shell-ballistics4.JPG
 
I am going to jump in since I have to go to a conference this week and wont be able to check in much.

When I started duck hunting, I used to shoot 3", 1 1/4 oz, 2s but didnt seem to have the results I thought I should. Part of that was shooting skills, a gun that didnt fit, but still I didnt like the results.
My partner always shot #4s so I switched to #4s in the same load back in '99.
They performed much better for me. Started hitting much better and they became my standard load from then on.

Then 2 years ago, I picked up a case of the same load in #3s cause they were on sale dirt cheap ($80/delivered). Since using the #3s, I seem to be hitting much better and the knocked down vs. hit the water dead ratio seems much, much better.

I found that the same mfg has now has a 3", 1 1/8, #3s load rated at 1550. I thought about changing to get the extra speed.
However, since I seem to be hitting better with the 1 1/4, #3s, and hitting is everything, I may stick with them. Why fix what isnt broke? Right? :)

But it is good to have debate and maybe somebody will benefit from this exchange of information.
Feel free to keep the debate going while I am gone!
 
Speed kills.

It depends upon how and where you hunt. If most of my shots are within 30 yards, I use 4's with a higher velocity. If most shots are 30 yards or more, bigger shot sizes.

Just to answer your question, I would choose more speed over more pellets.

Mark W
 
speed. The 1550 loads made us forget they even made 3.5 inch shells except for flack shooting snows. They're cheaper, kick less, and downright kill birds. Extra speed (and bigger shot size) does more to help lessen the effects on wind of a shot string than anything else. We shoot 1550 2's when the wind isnt howling, and 1550 bb's when it is, along with a change from ic to patternmasters. Wind is the biggest effect on our shooting, and the best days are typically when the wind is howling. travis
 
When I started duck hunting, I used to shoot 3", 1 1/4 oz, 2s but didnt seem to have the results I thought I should. Part of that was shooting skills, a gun that didnt fit, but still I didnt like the results. My partner always shot #4s so I switched to #4s in the same load back in '99.
They performed much better for me. Started hitting much better and they became my standard load from then on.


I should add that when I switched shot size, I also bought a new gun. Started shooting a Benelli Nova & then the next year a Berretta 390.
Both fit me much better.
Also my previous gun (a used Mossberg 9200 semi) had a bad point of impact vs. point of aim. It shot low & to the left by about a foot.
 
I have had really good results with remington sportsman's steel in the 3 inch 1&1/8 oz #2 pellet. they come out of the pipe at 1550 fps. I get about 3 cases at once ever other year or so, and always have extra for my buddies that way.

They seem to work well for seaducks, geese, and puddlers too. I even use them at the pheasant farm.


plus, the dealers will cut you a break if you buy in bulk.

I had a hell of a time switching from 1400 fps to 1550 and to 1375 fps with different brands.. .now that I have a shell that works and that I can get easily enough, I am going to go "All in" on it.
 
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Capt. Jeff and Rick have it exactly correct.

Don't read anything on ballistics from anything but an unbiased source. (Very few of those)

Do go out and buy a box of everything you would have the MOST CONFIDENCE in shooting, and shoot it at paper and compare. Then go out and buy 2-3 cases of your shells and never change! Shoot it.

It aint the arrows it's the indian.
 
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