Something interesting I learned today regarding the USCG boat testing

T

Tony H

Well-known member
Just got gone sending a couple emails to the USCG in regards to making arrangements to have a couple models of boats tested. In the past The USCG would reimburse mileage and a nights motel costs to manufacturers who self transport there boats to the test facility. We took our UFO to be tested ourselves years ago.

Well I learned that now they only provide testing for 1 boat for manufactures and tell me they only do it for the learning experience of the process.

So I guess we wont be taking the new boats to be tested by the USCG personally and will just continue self testing and following the manual. We are fortunate that we have seen the testing done first hand and have the manual and Our boat the UFO passed without any need for extra foam placement etc during the test so I am quite sure we will be just fine testing the new boats.

Besides my representative from the USCG is just a phone call away if we need him.

So just thought everyone might be interested to learn this information.
 
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Tony, no dig towards you but this is insane! They pay a manufacture to deliver and have a night rest to test there companies boat? The manufactures sell boats to make money and tax payers foot the bill for travel and motel on top of testing? Or am I missing something? If this is the case, it's another reason my head wants to explode in this era of financial doom and gov't spending in this country!
On a lighter note hope the test goes well for ya. Hope it passes and is more than required in floation dept. As we all know us duck hunters tend to over load boats.

Good luck,
Gene R
 
Tony, no dig towards you but this is insane! They pay a manufacture to deliver and have a night rest to test there companies boat? The manufactures sell boats to make money and tax payers foot the bill for travel and motel on top of testing? Or am I missing something? If this is the case, it's another reason my head wants to explode in this era of financial doom and gov't spending in this country!
On a lighter note hope the test goes well for ya. Hope it passes and is more than required in floation dept. As we all know us duck hunters tend to over load boats.

Good luck,
Gene R
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Gene that is correct I believe they pay 55 cents a mile round trip and up to 163.00 for a motel and meals.

Its my understanding that since the USCG offers to test boats and even pick them up and deliver them to the testing facility and back to the manufacturer that its got to be cheaper to pay the manufacturer to bring the boats. Boat transporting costs are expensive. Its a 2 day trip for testing.

The test program is a great incentive for manufacturers and we enjoyed having our UFO tested 8 years ago and learned a great deal from it. It also gives us piece of mind knowing we were able to follow the manual and create a safe boat that exceeds the USCG standards. And seeing the test done by the USCG is just another great burden lifted from our shoulders because there is always doubt that the foam is in the wrong place, or there is not enough to support the motor. etc etc. Even though the formula's work and if followed your fine. Its nice to see it in person.

The USCG set these standards and by doing so I think its only right that they provide the testing for manufacturers free of charge. I would take them even if they didn't reimburse me expenses.

But to learn that now they are only testing one boat per manufacturer or 1 boat per year as the latest email states makes no sense to me. We will have atleast 3 new boats on the market this fall and it will take 3 years to get them all certified and tested by the USCG?
 
so I understand this, besides not paying you. But they also will only test one boat per manfacture on your dime? so with 3 new boats they will only test one of them? What good are they then? Why are there rules and why are they getting any money from taxpayers? I thought the process was like the FDA its a watchdog for immoral people/companies so they didn't harm US citizens.
 
Sequestration in action.

Just think what it will be like when FDA/USDA furlows food inspectors and slaughter houses have to shut down. Or TSA cuts 20% of thier staff at airports.
 
Relax Carl, i don't think any of this will happen it's a way to get another tax increase so we can fund a socialistic government out of control. You can tell when he is lying,his mouth is moving.
 
Don't be so sure this time around.

Either way, this is no way to run a government.

And the president can't take all the blame for Sequestration:
Congress is responsible for passing budgets, both the Democratic controlled Senate and the Republic controlled House passed this law, because they couldn't do their jobs and come up with a budget that works.
I'd vote them all out of office if I thought there were any real leaders out there willing to run for Congress or the presidency.
 
The USCG set these standards and by doing so I think its only right that they provide the testing for manufacturers free of charge. I would take them even if they didn't reimburse me expenses.

But to learn that now they are only testing one boat per manufacturer or 1 boat per year as the latest email states makes no sense to me. We will have atleast 3 new boats on the market this fall and it will take 3 years to get them all certified and tested by the USCG?
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The govt sets 99% of the standards in the automotive industry as well, but they don't foot the bill for any of that testing...

Nothing against you Tony, it's something that you were accustomed to and now it's been taken away, so I know where you're coming from... but I think it's a benefit that should've never been there to begin with.

Company A makes and sells a product, it's Company A's responsibility to insure it doesn't harm people. PERIOD
 
From what i can read sequestration was his idea. Anyway we could cut in a lot of other non-essential areas before looking at the military,border patrol tsa etc. Also entitlements were in trouble before Obamacare, you can't add thirty million more people to an unfunded program without raising taxes. I am willing to pay my fair share if it is fair,Canada does it,it is expensive but it works. I would rather see a consumption tax.
AS for leaders i will vote for Dr. Benjamin Carlson.
How did we go from uscg to here? Must be Tonys fault.
Bill.
 
so I understand this, besides not paying you. But they also will only test one boat per manfacture on your dime? so with 3 new boats they will only test one of them? What good are they then? Why are there rules and why are they getting any money from taxpayers? I thought the process was like the FDA its a watchdog for immoral people/companies so they didn't harm US citizens.
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Thats my point exactly. I dont care about the money. although its a long drive to MD to test a boat. But hey its part of the business. But for them to claim they want to offer such a program then send out the forms to complete to set up a test date then you contact them and want to bring 2 models to test and get told sorry only 1 per year. No mind you that was after a few email conversations which started as only 1 boat per manufacturer.

Meeting USCG requirements is someone tricky to do with different boats. You have to move the foam placement around in the craft and make sure you have enough to pass all 3 parts of the test and when you go for the actual testing you take extra foam incase you need to put it somewhere else. They will allow that as long as you provide the foam to do so with. Luckily we didnt need any with our only test trip. But we were prepared to have a little extra on board the next time just in case. LOL
 
Sequestration in action.

Just think what it will be like when FDA/USDA furlows food inspectors and slaughter houses have to shut down. Or TSA cuts 20% of thier staff at airports.
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You would be surprised how clean USDA inspected facitlities are and how they operate. Now FDA I can't say as much for them, I know of quite a few horror stories. Plus they are both government organizations, one being unconstitutional, so you think they actually work?? LOL
 
Slow down fellas let me get my popcorn out of microwave. If this slows down I can bring up Keystone pipeline and Fracking and pop another bag.

Gene R
 
I made a call to the test facility today and the head guy said his two helpers are down to three days a week. So there testing Monday thru Wed. Paper work the rest of the week. The reason for only one test per year is two fold. The USCG budget has been cut back and there fore in order to help the most manufacturers they feel it is better to test one boat from each builder then say six boats from a smaller number of manufacturers. He felt that one should bring there largest boat 20ft. or less to be tested thinking that if you can pass your largest boat you should be able to figure out how to properly build the smaller boats. I tested my largest two years ago easily passing all tests. Now if you think paying us to bring the boats to be tested isn't fair and a waste of money consider that what they pay covers basic costs not our time. Which in my case was three days. If you really look at it closely in my opinion the boating industry is one of the most unregulated in the US. The bottom line is the testing saves lives.

Tom.
 
I made a call to the test facility today and the head guy said his two helpers are down to three days a week. So there testing Monday thru Wed. Paper work the rest of the week. The reason for only one test per year is two fold. The USCG budget has been cut back and there fore in order to help the most manufacturers they feel it is better to test one boat from each builder then say six boats from a smaller number of manufacturers. He felt that one should bring there largest boat 20ft. or less to be tested thinking that if you can pass your largest boat you should be able to figure out how to properly build the smaller boats. I tested my largest two years ago easily passing all tests. Now if you think paying us to bring the boats to be tested isn't fair and a waste of money consider that what they pay covers basic costs not our time. Which in my case was three days. If you really look at it closely in my opinion the boating industry is one of the most unregulated in the US. The bottom line is the testing saves lives.

Tom.
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Tom, I didn't call Steve, I spoke with one of the Coast guard officials who handles scheduling of the testing. While in theory testing the largest boat makes sense, the fact is there are just as many if not more smaller boats out there that are not up to standards and the test process is the same regardless of size as long as the boats have the same type propulsion factors. I promise you there are more small boat builders out there than there are big boat builders. And regardless of size you can die in any of them.

Figuring the process out isn't the hard part. Its all math and the formulas are written in the manuals its not until you have to place the foam into the boat that it gets tricky for level floatation and its alot of guess work here depending on the boat. Most all my boats are not your average shape and hull design, And it makes it difficult at time. Unregulated? thats an understatement. But they dont go to far to keep tabs on all the boats out there that are being built and that is where my problem lies. As a manufacturer you are supposed to follow the rules and quite frankly I see dozens of boats a year that would never pass a standard float test let alone HP ratings and Level floatation. Years ago the USCG ran around and bought boats and tested them because they could. But I am guessing since they cannot even afford to test more than 1 boat per manufacturer now that they definately are not ponying up the cash to buy boats anymore and take them back for testing unless they know for certian a boat doesnt pass and seen it somewhere to get a look to know.

I understand things are slow and they have cut back on testing days etc. But lets face it if they would test all the boats someone wants to bring them they would have more work to do daily. Just like me. I will have 4 boats atleast this year to be tested but they will only test 1. Thats 6 days of work they are losing. Sure they are not making any money off of me to say for testing the boats but its there program, they started it, set the guidelines for us to follow. So they should hold there end of the deal and test the boats as they state they will do.

Regardless we will just test them ourselves and not worry about it. I enjoyed the process and seeing them test them and especially talking with the guys at the facility but lets face it we dont have to take our boats there to be tested, we can do them on our own.

Only reason I started this thread was because I have told everyone we planned to take our boats to be certified by the USCG and now we can't do that. Because of new rules in place for the testing procedure.

So be it. That just means we can get the boats to market even sooner than originally planned.

So many regulations and rules pertaining to different types of boats now. And a Layout boat is not really a boat at all but they claim it is and must be regulated. Some times I wonder. Just like personal watercraft, there is no way on earth any of them would ever pass the USCG standards for boats yet they are more boat than any layout boat and have huge HP motor on them. Canoes is another one. Lots of regulations that just simply don't make any sense at all in the boat business. But we have to live with them and follow them.
 
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Tony, thanks for the heads up. I wanted to take two over this year myself. I understand how some might think that paying milage and per diem to the manufacturer may not sound right and I'm really disapointed they are no longer buying boats for testing. I was inclined to belive that it had stopped because I haven't received a request for a bid to transport one in quite some time. Guys, it works like this; the manufacturer has enginiers that do the math and (or use a dart board) to figure the capacities and flotation placement of a given model. Then the builder puts a certification label in the boat and you go motorating up the road with your brand shiney new boat behind your truck. Now that simple fact makes it comforting to me to know there is a testing program. I have hauled two boats to Soloman( at the owners request) that had the builders certification that had in fact sunk. One was a jet boat with a family of 5 on it that was recovered in SIXTY feet of water. The other was an 18 footer built by a very well known surface drive company. The stern of that boat ended up resting on the bottom in seven feet of water leaving 2 men pretty much helpless for over 4 hours. In the first case there were no deaths, in the second a retreiver sucumed to exhaustion from trying to stay on the steeply angled bow. In both cases the owners wished those models had been in a float tank.
 
Tony, thanks for the heads up. I wanted to take two over this year myself. I understand how some might think that paying milage and per diem to the manufacturer may not sound right and I'm really disapointed they are no longer buying boats for testing. I was inclined to belive that it had stopped because I haven't received a request for a bid to transport one in quite some time. Guys, it works like this; the manufacturer has enginiers that do the math and (or use a dart board) to figure the capacities and flotation placement of a given model. Then the builder puts a certification label in the boat and you go motorating up the road with your brand shiney new boat behind your truck. Now that simple fact makes it comforting to me to know there is a testing program. I have hauled two boats to Soloman( at the owners request) that had the builders certification that had in fact sunk. One was a jet boat with a family of 5 on it that was recovered in SIXTY feet of water. The other was an 18 footer built by a very well known surface drive company. The stern of that boat ended up resting on the bottom in seven feet of water leaving 2 men pretty much helpless for over 4 hours. In the first case there were no deaths, in the second a retreiver sucumed to exhaustion from trying to stay on the steeply angled bow. In both cases the owners wished those models had been in a float tank.
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Howard, I remember when we took our UFO over for testing 8 years ago and there was buildings full of boats that were tested by the USCG for many reason and many of which failed, Many of these boats were purchased secretly by the USCG and tested. It was quite a site to listen to the stories about these boats and to see some of the names on them. After testing they were then corrected and sold at auction to the highest bidder. I know about this because there was a duck boat in one of the buildings that I asked about and if it was for sale and was told to watch online for the boat government boat auctions and yes it would be sold. LOL For sure a no win for the USCG money wise but a HUGE win for peoples safety.

Your comment about the engineers and such strikes hard because these so called guys that are paid the big bucks to do these figures for boat companies are(were) ussually the ones to blame for the mistakes being made. Regardless of how easy one thinks it is to do these formulas and get everything exactly right well think again Its not if you don't think it through several times. Doing the formulas and such is the easy part. Finding the space inside the boats to fit the amount of foam in the proper places is the tough part, especially for small boats that don't have all the open space in the right places. Take for example our Black Jack. Early models of this boat were wide open boats with foam in 3 places. the transom, floor and bow. And while I cant speak for past builders I can assure you this. We have alot more foam in the boats now than they ever did and its in the right places. We have a total of almost 8cu ft of floatation in that little boat. 3cu ft in the transom pods to support a 25hp motor and 5 cu ft down the sides for max capacity, level floatation and persons, gear, Doing the math this little boat requires 7.2cu ft of foam placed in it. We used 8cu ft and put zero under the floor. But everyone wants all the space they can get and dont realize alot of that space on these smaller boats is lost to floatation foam in order to meet USCG standards. Thus the reason we cant just start building boats and selling them without going over them and insuring they have the proper amount of foam and in the right places. So does that mean the older ones are not safe? That's not for me to determine. Its my job to insure the new models we build are though and if it means we have to give up some cubic foot of decoy storage for the placement of the required floatation to meet our goal for the capcity label well then thats when it gets tricky because we have to stop think and design how and where this foam is going to go. And as we already know under the floors while is the easy way for most is not neccessarily the right place for 10 years down ther read when it soaks up water and the boat gains 50lbs.

The fact is there are more duck boats floating around out there that are no way near meeting USCG standards. We see on the forums everyday, guys tearing benches full of foam out of jon boats,etc. And they can do that legally and not be held accountable. But what happens when they sell the boat to someone later and someone gets killed in this boat that someone felt the need to modify and remove all the foam from so they could haul another dozen decoys?

When money was no object and they were being fully funded it all was good. Now times are hard and the consumers safety is taking the hit. Sure their argument is well its not our responsibility to test your boats its yours the manufacturer and thats true. But the government is the one who made all these rules and PPG is the one who started the testing program. Maybe they should have thought about where all this money comes from and the future when they started doing it. I know I got the full paper manual when we started in the boat business years ago and when our rep was here this winter we were discussing one of the new boats and we was referencing something and I grabbed the 4" thick hard bound manual and he couldnt believe I had one. He said wow your lucky, we havent provided those in years. Now everyone gets a cd with it on it. LOL.

It saddens me to see this happening but it is what it is.

Rest assured we will continue to insure our boats meet USCG standards at all costs with or without the volunteer test program. In a few years odds are the programs will be gone complete. And if were not carefull the coast guard may be as well. LOL
 
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Don't be so sure this time around.

Either way, this is no way to run a government.

And the president can't take all the blame for Sequestration:
Congress is responsible for passing budgets, both the Democratic controlled Senate and the Republic controlled House passed this law, because they couldn't do their jobs and come up with a budget that works.
I'd vote them all out of office if I thought there were any real leaders out there willing to run for Congress or the presidency.
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I couldn't agree more Carl,well stated. THe USCG should never been absorbed into the HLS but rather remainded automonus to fullifill it's mission. Budget 's get slashed and safety is one of the first things to go.I have nothing but respect for the men and woman who serve in the USCG, yes regulations can make thing difficult but when you hear a mayday you hope the boat floats and you pray they can get out to them in time.
 
Steve ment that you should test the largest boat that any given manufacturer builds. The guys that do the inspections and the testing work for an independent company that have a contract with the USCG. The number of inspectors has also been reduced. A number of years back none of them were working as the goverment stalled giving out a new contract for about six months. It's a bid contract which the same company has had for more then 13 years I've been build boats.

Tom.
 
Steve ment that you should test the largest boat that any given manufacturer builds. The guys that do the inspections and the testing work for an independent company that have a contract with the USCG. The number of inspectors has also been reduced. A number of years back none of them were working as the goverment stalled giving out a new contract for about six months. It's a bid contract which the same company has had for more then 13 years I've been build boats.

Tom.
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Correct about a contract and independant company. I mentioned the company previously. I believe its PPG? Atleast thats the company name on the applications for boat testing. And thats the complicated part. The letter states nothing about being able to test X amount of boats and certain sizes. But when you turn the letter in it goes directly to the USCG and they are the ones setting the rules for the testing.

I am going to venture a guess that it wont be long before this is phased out because companies wont be able to afford to bid the job and either the USCG will have to absorb even more cost or drop it completely.
 
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