16 Gauge vs. 20 Gauge

Eric Patterson

Eric Patterson

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Staff member
As many of you know Thomas shoots a 20 gauge O/U. His shell of choice is 3" 2 shot. His grandfather has a Stevens 311A 16 gauge that Thomas wants to try, badly. He's still a couple years away from being big enough but I'm wondering if there is any jump in knockdown power. Seems as though the 3" 20 gauge shells pack the same load as a 16 gauge 2 3/4" shell does. Other than the coolness of shooting his grandfathers double are their any advantages of a 16 over a 20 with today's 3" 20 loads? Better patterning maybe?

Eric
 
Eric:
You are going to have a hard time finding a variety of shells for the 16. But if you load or don't mind paying up for expensive shells, you should be ok. Everything that I have read about 16s is good. It will definitely pattern better than the 20g. I also would not think that it would be too heavy for the young guy. It might even have less punch. I have shot 3" 20s and it can hit harder than my 12. I would let him try the 16.
Sterny
 
David

I have an online source for shells. As long as I stock up before the season we shouldn't have a problem with finding shells.

Thanks.
 
I have taken waterfowl with both a 20 and 16. Both worked well. As to which gauge is better I can not say....I did not feel under gunned with either....When shooting ducks over decoys I do not think Thomas would be able to tell the difference....The 16 might pattern a tad better, but can you tell the difference at 25 yards over decoys? I say try it....
 
when just yesterday you were talking about "hanging them up".....good to see the "last day blues" only lasted a day....

There's an old adage in shotgunning....SQUARE LOADS will always pattern better than Rectangular loads......simply defined that means the closer you come to the shot column being as wide as it is tall the better the shell will pattern....the better the shell patterns, IN 3D, not on paper, the better it will perform....i.e. KILL.....

Which means that if the same payload will fit into a 2-3/4" 16 ga hull that will fit in a 3" 20 ga. hull then the 16 ga. shell will "outperform" the 20 ga.....(I'm sure the "roman candle igniters" will argue in which case I'll point them to the successes that people like Mark Schupp have on everything from Teal to Canada Geese to Turkeys with 2-3/4" 1-1/8 oz. loads).....and add only the caveat, "all other things being equal"....

The above said I can tell you that Thomas will likely NOT like the 311 in "any" gauge...if its not an A model then the stock will have all the shape of a 2" x 4" complete with the 90 degree angles int he pistol grip, and in both the A and non A it will have dbl triggers.....not a big deal in and of itself except that the trigger gaurd is designed such that you have to "reach", even with big hands, to pull the front trigger....do that and the recoil slams the rear of the trigger gaurd into to the top of your second finger....goes unnoticed the first couple of times, especially in a hunting situation, starts to get uncomfortable after a few shots, and with any volume of shells "hurts like a sumbitch" the next day......(as my "bona fides" for the above statement I own a 311A 20 ga....recoil is never felt but if I shoot more than a half a box through it my finger feels like its been based with a hammer the next day)

Just some thoughts....

Steve
 
With the new classic double non tox loads the 16 might have an advantage over the 3" 20g. It would be like using a traditional lead load in a 5 or 6 shot and not have to rely on speed to get the same down range force out of the shot. I would think that felt recoil would be the biggest change with down range results being similar. With the classic double non tox you will have greater pattern density due to smaller shot size.

My dad's old Winchester Model 24 in 16g is choked M/I and handles 8 and 7 1/2 shot well. Anything larger tends to spread too far or clump up, so he never used it for ducks. It is the only gun that I have shot 100% with on flushing birds. Very deadly weapon even in the hands of a beginner.

I would recommend a day on the range to see what the old Stevens shoots like.
 
when just yesterday you were talking about "hanging them up".....good to see the "last day blues" only lasted a day....

There's an old adage in shotgunning....SQUARE LOADS will always pattern better than Rectangular loads......simply defined that means the closer you come to the shot column being as wide as it is tall the better the shell will pattern....the better the shell patterns, IN 3D, not on paper, the better it will perform....i.e. KILL.....

Which means that if the same payload will fit into a 2-3/4" 16 ga hull that will fit in a 3" 20 ga. hull then the 16 ga. shell will "outperform" the 20 ga.....(I'm sure the "roman candle igniters" will argue in which case I'll point them to the successes that people like Mark Schupp have on everything from Teal to Canada Geese to Turkeys with 2-3/4" 1-1/8 oz. loads).....and add only the caveat, "all other things being equal"....

The above said I can tell you that Thomas will likely NOT like the 311 in "any" gauge...if its not an A model then the stock will have all the shape of a 2" x 4" complete with the 90 degree angles int he pistol grip, and in both the A and non A it will have dbl triggers.....not a big deal in and of itself except that the trigger gaurd is designed such that you have to "reach", even with big hands, to pull the front trigger....do that and the recoil slams the rear of the trigger gaurd into to the top of your second finger....goes unnoticed the first couple of times, especially in a hunting situation, starts to get uncomfortable after a few shots, and with any volume of shells "hurts like a sumbitch" the next day......(as my "bona fides" for the above statement I own a 311A 20 ga....recoil is never felt but if I shoot more than a half a box through it my finger feels like its been based with a hammer the next day)

Just some thoughts....

Steve
Click to expand...


I will second the square load comment for the 16g. It is supposed to be an optimum diameter for a 1 oz load according some ancient article some where back in the 1980's.

As to the trigger guard thing, that has some merit as well. I have small hands and a few of the doubles that I have shot, including my 686, have tore up my second finger once in a while.

For the double triggers my Dad taught me to use two fingers like he did. Automatic barrel selector depending on your focus. If you panic every time a bird jumps up you might not want to use two fingers. Dad grew up hunting bobwhites in North Carolina with several different "dime store" SxS guns, with the Model 24 being his favorite. It is freaky to do this but once you do it a few times it is remarkible easy. I wish my cheap 686 had double triggers.
 
only transfers the recoil to the third finger as opposed to the second.....

BTW recoil on a 2-3/4" 16 ga "should be" less than recoil on a 3" 20 ga.....this due to reduced hull pressure....o.e. bigger explosion in a smaller vessel.....so "other than" the "finger issue" the 16 ga. should be a superior bun all around.....(except fo the purple shell thing....even yellow shells are preferable to purple ones)......

Steve
 
the square shot column gets my vote also....but I am not sure you will notice the difference in the field...

As far as a Stevens double biting fingers...I haven't not noticed that on mine..But then I have bigger hands...I have never tried the two finger trigger finger on a double with double triggers. All my double have double triggers..
 
Thanks for the inputs. I am familar with the square load concept but also know that whenever ballistics discussions come up someone will fervently argue one side or another. The trigger guard issue on the other hand is totally new info. When he is big enough some range time or early dove season practice will be needed to see just how much of an issue the trigger guard/finger. It is a 311A so the stock doesn't look like the 2x4 Steve described. However I know 311's are generally thought of as clubs, vintage clubs but clubs nontheless. I wasn't going to mention this to Thomas so he could form his own opinion and have a sense of pride while shooting the same gun that Papa George used to slay the ducks and turkeys of Amite County Mississippi (insert Jerry Clowers "sohhhhnnnn" story here) as a boy growing up in a small town.

Steve, for the record I never said we were hanging them up. Rather we will look for other venues as my river running days are numbered if the present situation persists. E.g. finding greener pastures.
 
I'm a huge 16ga fan. About ten years ago I inherited the 16 Ga. Model 12 my Dad bought when I was born. It is tied with my 12ga 1907 Lefever as my favorite pheasant gun.

Here's a pic.
model12-16ga.jpg


I know ahat you are talking about with bruising a finger with the double triggers. Here's my Lefever. I initially did bruise my finger, and after you bruise it just put the gun away for awile, it's that biting the inside of your cheek thing, it is swolen and sore and really in the way to keep repeating. I was able to concentrate on the problem and adjust my grip as I shot, it is no longer a problem for me.
LefeverDS002.jpg

 
Steve,

You will find that there is NO direct correlation between hull pressure and recoil. If there were, than a .410 would have significantly higher recoil than a 12 ga. The formula for recoil does not include a place to plug in hull pressure.
 
(which is the comparison that I was making), into a .410 case the .410. would likely kick like a mule.....

I know that a 20.ga with a 3" round has "more felt recoil" than a 12 ga. with the same "load" in 2-3/4" hull..... and thats with very close to the same wt. in guns......

Its like what Eric said about the square load...."somebody will always argue"......I'd argue that while there might not be a "place" in the equation for that hull pressure that it still plays a part.....

In the end it doesn't really matter though "what" combination of factors cuases one gun to feel like it kicks less than another does it? I'll stick to my "gun" that the felt recoil in a "comparable wt" 16 ga shooting the same load in a 2-3/4" hull will have less "felt" recoil than the one fired out of a 3" 20 ga.....

Steve
 
his grip to help prevent the "finger bruising" that occurs with dbl triggers......but thats the second to the last thing you want to have a "young/new" shooter doing.....(the first being he needs a gun that doesn't HURT HIM when he pulls the trigger).....

Kids need to be able to mount the gun and shoot WITHOUT THINKING.....not "see duck, adjust grip on gun, mount gun, make sure grip is correct so that gun doesn't hurt me when I pull trigger, ouch-that wasn't right".....I can think of few other things that will create a "flinch" quicker than being "afraid" that a gun is going to "hurt" when you shoot it unless "everythig is perfect".....

I know one young shooter that has a WICKED flinch because of that....not a dbl trigger but a gun that doesn't fit and that is too light for the heavy 3" loads that are shot.....another case of buying the "hype" that a small person has to shoot a small gauge in my opinion.....

Steve
 
I'm going to agree with Steve on this one.

I shoot "Roman Candles" on occasion through my 10-gauge. I would rather have the big 10 any day over a 3 1/2" 12-gauge; the 10 gives me a push, the supermag 12 stabs. And that is from personal experience with a 10 gauge pump versus a supermag 12 auto...a supermag 12 pump is like taking punishment.

And, I've shot a 2 3/4 12 versus a magnum 20, and the results were about the same...the mag 20 is harder on the body than the 2 3/4 12.

Yes, part of it is weight of the gun, which may be a benefit in going to the 16 over the 20...little more beef in the gun will help. But the same volume through a smaller opening creates more pressure, just like a fire hose.

Eric, I love the 16. It's hard to get shells, and the age of your gun will require non-tox other than steel, which will make it harder on your pocketbook (I have a Model 12, so I know how that works).

One last comment...if you have a good source for 16's in non-tox, let me know, because I'd love to find some more and shoot the Winchester.
 


I have no problem agreeing that different guns, gauges, stock configurations, facial characteristics, etc, etc, etc. have an effect on recoil - but pressure in and by itself does not. Mass of the ejecta including powder charge does as does velocity. Pressure may or may not have an effect on velocity and that is the closest you are going to get to a correlation. With the right components I can get a higher velocity load with lower pressure than a lower velocity load and guess what, the recoil will be higher - because the velocity is higher.
 
What are the chokes? SxS chokes need to be a little more open then a single barrel gun. Being a 311 I'd guess it is F/M or F/F. If it is M/I I'd shoot smaller steel (3's and smaller) through it but that's just me. I shoot steel 4's through a 20ga M12, my grandfathers gun.

I've often lusted after 16ga guns but have never had one. This site has a lot of info on it http://www.16ga.com/
If nothing else the cool factor is great enough that it is worth it to take grandpa's gun on a dove hunt at least.

Tim
 
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