anybody try HEVI-SHOT classic double ammo?

E

ed gagne

Well-known member
i just bought an A.H. Fox 12 gauge after looking for a decent one for three years. almost with perfect timing hevi-shot comes out with what they call "classic double". this ammo is supposed to be safe for "vintage shotguns and fine shotguns". its not so much the shot that concerns me but the high pressure of the round. i dont know much if anything about shotgun shells other then that i can only fit two in this gun ;) but i heard that new shells are higher pressured then what the old rounds used to be.

any advice or experiences are welcomed knowledge and i appreciate the inpute as i intend to hunt with this gun and have ordered two boxes of this "classic double" ammo.

thanks in advance
eddie
 
Is it available yet? I don't know anyone who has found it . I wish Bismuth was still available. What year is your Fox? Hows about a pic? What are the chokes?
 
well as far as i know lee my fox is choked full and modified with 28" barrels it was made in the early 1930's.im having the dealer i bought it from find the guy he got it from so i can learn more. i, meaning my local gun dealer found 16 boxes of classic double and i have ordered two in 2 3/4 #2's so i guess it is available, or he didnt find the right stuff. as for pics i lost my usb cable to my camera but the gun is about 85% blueing on the barrels the case colors are maybe 40% and someone had refinished the stock but the wood is gorgeous, scratch and dent free. i paid a $1000 for it and could not be happier. only one thing the butt stock seems to be a little loose where it meets the receiver, is there something that can be done?

thanks eddie
 
Ed,sounds like you found a nice Fox.The loose stock needs to be tightened before you shoot it with other than light target loads.These new steel loads are higher pressure than the old stuff.The listed velocity is the clue.Anything over 1300 fps is bound to be much higher than what we know were Hi-brass field loads in the past.The next thing you will need to do if you shoot steel,is have the chokes opened up to IC and Mod.Even Bizmuth will shoot much tighter in that gun,as well as lead,due to plastic wads.If you load,then you could custom load some nice paper Fed hulls,cardboard and felt wads,with Bizmuth shot.Discuss this with a gunsmith that works on shotguns.Good luck
 
I'd call him up and have him change it to 6's if available.#2 is way too big for those chokes. Take the butt pad off ,there is a bolt that goes up to the tangs..you should be able to snug up that bolt.
 
Ed, do not take the chokes out.....
They are original? If so leave them. They can be loaded around to give more open patterns. Get in touch with Polly wad out of GA. He has loaded low pressure loads just for classic doubles for target shooting. Also may have No Tox for shooting birds. Do not know anything about the heavy shot double loads but the stock needs to be adjusted by a fox competent smith before you light it off.
A writer in the Double Gun Journal did a whole series of articles on loading for the early doubles including damascus. It would be worth your while to get a few of those articles if you can. I will take a look if I get a chance and poss. can copy them for you.
 
Stay with your average field load type ballistics. I would be concerned with the choke constriction and hard shot. Also, guns set up for modern non-toxic shot have a longer forcing cone for easier transition from chamber to barrel. With a tight choke and a thin barrel, it might not be a good combination for hard shot. The shot cup is protection from non-toxic hard shot, but hard shot still needs to squeeze through the choke. Stay with the smaller shot size #6 or less. If you are not sure, have your gun inspected by a good gunsmith for an opinion.


The information I have read states that lead shot when fired through a barrel has the properties of fluid dynamics. If the new shot alloys you want to use has the properties of fluid dynamics, then you have excellent replacement for lead shot.
 
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Bob, do you think whomever refinished the stock may have removed too much wood somewhere? I am just being ignorant here, but why would a pro fessional Fox guy be needed to snug up a stock bolt? You have piqued my interest.
 
I picked up a few boxes of the Classic Double and did some patterns. This gun was a Winchester 21 choked Full and Full 1 1/4oz Very poor patterns from all shot sizes. The 1 1/8th gave much better patterns. With another 21 with Briley chokes IC and Light Mod gave me very even patterns 1 1/4. The forcing cone has nothing to do with a set up gun for non toxic shot. Some come from the factory with long cones while others use shorter cones like a Perazzi. Sure I send most of my guns to have Seminole work them over. But not a vintage gun.

I would start to see what the proof marks are on the gun by a gunsmith that works with doubles. A custom load to work around that tight choke could be the answer as stated above. Me I roll my own Bismuth and Hevi-SHot. With the tighter chokes I like a 1 oz load. But that is me and mileage may vary from loader to shooter.

A place to raise this question would be www.doublegunshop.com

Your faced with a tight choke that can be opened and it's not a big deal to have it done. You just need to find a smith that will cut them properly maybe even twice after you pattern it. Or you can send a few boxes of the load you want to shoot and he cuts and shoots. Send you the pictures and it's a done deal. That would be the way I would go and then shoot the hell out of that gun like it was intended to.
 
Lee,
I have a 30 inch early Sterlingworth that I love. My brother in law is a Fox and L. C. Smith nut. He sold it to me. As for having a Fox guy look at it, way to many guys take a nice double down to the corner gun store and get talked into all kinds of bad ideas. They ain't making any more of these early Philly guns at prices we all could afford, so the last thing I would do is start making changes without doing my homework. The Fox is way easier than the L. C. Smiths to get the stock tension right, but it will crack if shot up with the wrong tension\fit. I'm no gunsmith, or stocker but I do love reading about the craft of the old guns and the hand work that went into each one. Not GO\NO GO type assembly. There is a rotating tapered breach lock in the foxes that made their "Bank Vault" reputation till Winchester came out with the virtually indestructable model 21. If not taken apart carefully it can be screwed up by someone not familiar with the gun.
It is easy for me to say don't touch the chokes because I reload, but I think there are soft pellet loads available that will be suitable for the gun without pounding it or the shooter. The Foxes and Parkers had different combs than most guns today and some find them "Hard Kickers" I feel mostly due to stock fit. I would not use any hard non toxic pellet in an old gun.
Also, forcing cones and chamber length as stated are way over emphasised when talking about shotgun ballistics. See Tom Rosters book and previous mentioned DGJ articles on shotgun barrel modifications for some very interesting reading about pattern and pressure MYTHS. Also note that some European Makers for pigion guns still use short cones on guns. Those guys bet thousands of dollars on a bird dropping dead in the ring and would not use a $60,000 gun that did not patten with a short shot string.
I have heard that Brilley is doing very nice work on double guns (Action\Barrel\Stock Repairs, not just screw chokes) but have not sent mine myself. Doug Turnbull in NY is THE guy for case color work. Galazan in CT has incredible stuff, but I can't afford to even look.
A copy of Mr. Macintosh's book on the Fox gun would be a good idea for anyone who owns one if you haven't read it. Tom Kidd lives in PA and I believe he can still be reached, but he does not write for DGJ any more. He is very knowledgable and would be a very good place to get info on smiths to trust.
Lee I will print two copy's of the articles on the low pressure bismuth articles and send you one if you want. I think I copied them for Steve Sutton a long time ago. They are kind of long but good reading for "Old Gun Nuts."
Are you sick of talking old foxes yet?
 
Talk to Mike he does most of the work on my pigeon guns, I trust him.

A-Brochure06.jpg

 
ok with all of that to consider here is the exact ad for hevi shot classic double

26% denser then steel but soft like lead
denser, stronger and harder hitting then bismuth pellets
belted sphere for maixmum pellet mass
buffered and nano- treated pellets for tight patterns
usfws approved nontoxic shot
available in 12-20 gauge

"optimized for your fixed chokes and fine classic doubles!"

as for changing the order it will be here tuesday, im really aching to shoot this gun at ducks so im guessing it would be a bad idea to even try these loads?

the dealer told me what the chokes are is there some number on the gun itself that would verify full and mod or what number should i be looking for if i put a micrometer on it?

if i decide to tighten that bolt myself should i just tighten it til snug or slightly loose or what.

thanks for your advice

eddie
 
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Take some pics and post them here of the barrel where the lugs are. It will show the proof and markings of the chokes.
 
Ed, the ad sounds good, but.... I do not know anything about the product. I would like to see a pressure number in psi. And I would look for a lighter load than the old 1 1\2 oz or 1 1\4 oz to start. If you are tight choked it will show up on a 4' square of paper at 35 to 40 yds.
I know there are some guys up your way (VT) doing nice work on old doubles but it has been a few years since I have read copys of shooting sportsman or DGJ to see who is advertizing their work. Post up on the website listed above for classic doubles? I am sure you will get some info on who could adjust\tighten the stock for you.
I took some pictures of mine and will post them. They don't show the crack as well as I would have liked but you can see it just the same.
I do not believe Fox marked the barrels with the choke like Browning. The mark is "Fox Proof" on the Krupp steel barrels. The number is for the barrel weight. They were matched before jointing I believe. All this is in the Mackintosh book. I will try to put my hands on it. Will also try to call Tom Kidd today.
Give me a call at 860 625 1627
 
Ed
called an old friend who did a lot of stock work in the day.
He said it will depend on if the wrist has shrunk and needs new bedding or if the cheeks have spread which is another job and is more complicated. He mentioned New England Custom Guns in NH as knowing what would be involved but did say they would not be cheap. Also he did not have experience with the Heavy loads, but is shooting Bismuth in Parkers and English Hammer guns at geese and ducks. He mentioned Kent and the soft pellet they make for loaded rounds too. PSI is what you need to find on the Heavy loads. A call to them monday should get it for you.
I found a link to a shop in Belchertown Ma that listed stock work on Shotgunworld.com. in the gunsmithing and restoration forum.
Left a message with Mr Kidd and I think he will call me back.
 
wow thanks bob i will try to get on that website and post a question there.

i really do appreciate all the help and i guess i will have two boxes of this hevi shot for sale if you guys think i shouldnt shoot it through my gun. i'll try to find out what the psi is on those loads and see if they really are ok for my gun.

i did manage to shoot a partridge today with my gun after chasing a few birds i had one that i jumped but couldnt get a shot, i then ran around the cedars to cut him off and found him just on the edge. he flushed and i folded him, it was one of the more pretty shots ive had on those fool birds.

thanks guys for the help
eddie
 
I looked at the website for the Hevi loads and the speed is not nuts. If the PSI is under the max I think they might work for your gun. The shot charge may be a lot to take on your cheek but only shooting will tell. As I said give them a call. I am sure they have folks there to field questions.
Nice job on the upland hunt.
I would love to know how many pellets that gun puts in a 30 inch circle at 40 yds. Takes twice as many tries with a SxS but is cool to see. Count a load cut open for pellet numbers to get true pattern %. But I still would not shoot it too much until you find out if the stock is too loose. Be a shame to crack it.
 
thanks for the advice i posted on doubleguns and it didnt seem like anyone there had shot the stuff (they had a post asking the same question). so i dont know no one was very clear some said they thought it would blow up others said they emailed hevi shot with no answer. i'll hold of on shooting those shells, another guy didnt think #2's were available.

i hope nothings wrong with the gun id hate to have to put money into after all that i spent on it already.

thanks
eddie
 
Ed

Jef Smith, my hunting partner and former regular here, shoots a Burt Becker A.H Super Fox, similar to Nash Buckingham's Bowhoop. If I recall it patterns better than 90% at 40 yards and is backbored. It is SUPPOSED to be tight if it's a duck gun for pete's sake Why change that???????? In the pic below Jeff stone cold those two mallards at 60 yards with 2 3/4 shells. There isn't a gunsmith out there than can improve on this. He uses Federal Tungsten Polymer (equiv to Kent Tungsten Matrix) which is soft as lead and safe for older bore shotguns due to the softness of the "cookie dough" that holds the tungsten together as shot (sort of like a chocolate chip cookie if you will). My gut feel is HELL NO to rechoking you might trash the value of a classic. I'd consult with a very well qualified gunsmith, probably only a few in the country in this instance, and get their prefessional advice before you let anyone have their way with your girl.

fox1.jpg

 
Fox indeed had Becker make barrels on about 300 guns, most were in 32" barrel length "Long Range Fowler". Becker Barrels were in the .740 bore with a higher proof while Fox used a tighter Bore of .729 and a lower proof. There just not the same beast. Just look at the barrels in that pic they are even tubes of art work with no real taper.
 
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