Electrical Question

Pat M

Pat M

Active member
First comment- electrical/wiring is very new to me so please be patient with me especially with terminology.

So I'm going to rewire the whole John Deere boat. I want to try to minimize the number of wires this boat has going on. There is a nest of wires under the counsel. Some of the grounds (black wires) go right to the battery. The boat does have an older 4 switch panel with fuses for the lights (double switch- up for running lights only and down for running plus interior), bilge, aerator and for the 12v plug (cig plug). The positive wires leaving the switches are all twisted together (so only one wire has to go back to the battery). To reduce the number of single wires hanging the previous owner used a trailer wire set (with the 5 colors) to run from the switches on back to the lights, bilge and aerator and one for the main power line to the battery.

I want to reduce the wires and try to do the electrical properly. I did a little searching on West Marine and found their DC electrical panels http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=691078&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10109&subdeptNum=10598&classNum=10601 . Prematurely I bought the 4 circuit + 2 12v power outlets, figuring I'd make the interior lights a switch by itself. Well I made two mistakes, (first one not all my fault) the 4th switch on the panel controls the 12v plugs so there are only really 3 open switches. Secondly I forgot about the two depth/fish finders, the gps and the marine radio. I don’t want to run their wires back to the battery individually. So I’m going to return it.

To my questions-
Is there some kind of panel/fuse box…ext. that I can connect all the positive wires and negative wires to and then run 1 main wire back to the battery? I don't really want a switch for all the other electrical stuff but is that the best route? If I do will that keep the battery from draining as fast while not in use? My old 16’ fishing boat had 2 aluminum panels under the counsel. They had a nut to loosen and slide a wire underneath and then tight it down, one on a positive and negative panel. Then the main power line ran off of that. I can’t find anything like that on west marine or any place else. And the idea of all those exposed wires makes me a little nervous.

What size (gauge) wire would I need?

Any other suggestions/pointers?

Most of the wires will either be under the floor or I will put them in some kind of tubing/hose and mount it to the side.

Sorry for the long message but I wanted to be thorough. Thanks for the help.

 
You can run a single positive wire to a master switch and then to the panel for your hot lead. You can run a single negative wire also and attach it to a buss bar or post and then run all of the grounds to it (don't ground to the hull). You'll still need to run pairs of wire back to bilge pumps, running lights etc. Put them in conduit or wire loom to protect them and keep it neat. If you search some of the construction pictures on this site you'll find lots of great examples of high quality work.
 
First comment- electrical/wiring is very new to me so please be patient with me especially with terminology.

So I'm going to rewire the whole John Deere boat. I want to try to minimize the number of wires this boat has going on. There is a nest of wires under the counsel. Some of the grounds (black wires) go right to the battery. The boat does have an older 4 switch panel with fuses for the lights (double switch- up for running lights only and down for running plus interior), bilge, aerator and for the 12v plug (cig plug). The positive wires leaving the switches are all twisted together (so only one wire has to go back to the battery). To reduce the number of single wires hanging the previous owner used a trailer wire set (with the 5 colors) to run from the switches on back to the lights, bilge and aerator and one for the main power line to the battery.

I want to reduce the wires and try to do the electrical properly. I did a little searching on West Marine and found their DC electrical panels http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=691078&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10109&subdeptNum=10598&classNum=10601 . Prematurely I bought the 4 circuit + 2 12v power outlets, figuring I'd make the interior lights a switch by itself. Well I made two mistakes, (first one not all my fault) the 4th switch on the panel controls the 12v plugs so there are only really 3 open switches. Secondly I forgot about the two depth/fish finders, the gps and the marine radio. I don’t want to run their wires back to the battery individually. So I’m going to return it.

To my questions-
Is there some kind of panel/fuse box…ext. that I can connect all the positive wires and negative wires to and then run 1 main wire back to the battery? I don't really want a switch for all the other electrical stuff but is that the best route? If I do will that keep the battery from draining as fast while not in use? My old 16’ fishing boat had 2 aluminum panels under the counsel. They had a nut to loosen and slide a wire underneath and then tight it down, one on a positive and negative panel. Then the main power line ran off of that. I can’t find anything like that on west marine or any place else. And the idea of all those exposed wires makes me a little nervous.

What size (gauge) wire would I need?

Any other suggestions/pointers?

Most of the wires will either be under the floor or I will put them in some kind of tubing/hose and mount it to the side.

Sorry for the long message but I wanted to be thorough. Thanks for the help.
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Pat,

What you are doing is a big job, not hard but lots of stuff to learn. A couple nights reading a good 12V book will be time well served. The 12 Volt bible for boaters is a good place to start.

I'll give you a bunch of answers to get things started. Power distribution is the first thing to think about. You are exactly right that you don't want to run every wire back to the battery. Typically in boats you collect up your wires on a busbar and then run a single larger wire to the battery. This cleans things up a lot. For the loads you are talking about (not the starter battery) the positive side can be distributed by the switch panel you bought (fed by a large wire) and the negatives can be all collected up on a busbar and returned to the battery via another large wire. You also need a main cutoff to disconnect the power on the positive side (usually a big red switch mounted some where you can get to). Combine FF, GPS, etc up on one circuit - things that are used at once, unless you have a reason not to.

You need overload protection for all devices (fuses or breakers). The panel you bought has them for any devices hooked to it.

Wire size for marine wiring depends on three things, the length of the run (the length of the run is out AND back, so run times 2), the calculated amperage draw of the devices and the voltage drop you desire. What you do is figgure out the amps of the devices on the circuit and add them up, measure the run x 2, and look the wire size up on a table (there is a 10% and a 3% drop table, what table you use depends on the device).

Yes, run the wires in a pipe under deck, pvc is commonly used. Where wires are not contained they need to be zip tied at intervals and secured by some means.

To connect wires to each other and to the panel and busbar, crimp connectors are the standard way. They come in all different sizes and configurations (waterproof or not, etc...). They get spendy real quick, but to do the job right they are needed. Use tinned marine connectors and I'd suggest using tinned marine wire.

You will see lots of references to ABYC standards, these are guidelines used by the marine industry, they aren't law, but they are the accepted standard.
 
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After rebuilding numerous aluminum boats, my suggestion to you is run independant "sheathed" 2-wire (red/black-white/black-white/green) wire for each item your using on the boat.

If every item has an independant hot & ground wire dedicated to it, when it breaks down it is now much simpliar to identify & repair.


Example for simplicity sake:

Run a red/black 8 gauge from battery to fuse panel & connect to hot & ground blocks.

A typical boat has a bow light, stern light & bilge pump that need to be wired.

12/14 if fine for the nav lights due to low draw.

I like 10 for the bilge due to the continuous draw & possibility of keeping you from sinking.

Using the sheathed wire, you will have (3) three hot & (3) three gounds coming back to the fuse panel.

If you use (3) three different color coded wire, you will always know what is what.

But the biggest advantage of the sheathed wire in an aluminum boat is electrolosys prevention.

Electrical current passing through the wire that is touching the metal of the boat will in the long run cause the metal to rot.

It may take years but everytime that current is applied to the wire, it is weakening the metal.

By using the sheathed wire, you a preventing over (90%) ninety percent of that current from effecting the metal.

And you are doubling the chance of a rub through & grounding issues.

Spend the extra money & use the sheathed wire.

If you need me to, I'll walk out & take a pic of the fuse panel for you.


gd59.jpg

 
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Thanks Todd, I figured it would be little more difficult then I hoped it would be. I will do a little more reading and educate myself.

Is there any harm in going to big on guage of wire? Besides wasting money?
 
Jeff- Thanks for the response.

I saw the sheathed wire on the West Marines site. I will have to look into that a little more. Do you know which fuse panel/box it was? If there are fuses in my switch board would I need the extra fuse box?
 
Thanks Todd, I figured it would be little more difficult then I hoped it would be. I will do a little more reading and educate myself.

Is there any harm in going to big on guage of wire? Besides wasting money?
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No bigger is better, unless you get so big that it is hard to work with. Stranded, tinned marine wire up to 10, or so, is easy to work with, but you don't need 10 for much. It is easy, just takes some planning and $$.
 
Pat, you've gotten lots of good advice. I'm abyc certified for marine electricity. If there are any other questions fell free to pm me. Frank Middleton
 
Pat,

I use a simple, marine grade fuse panel with a built in grounding bar mounted in the dryest location possible.

As far as switches, I like a push/pull switch.

I have found in open boats like ours (duck hunters) the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid) is the easiest & safest way to go.

I stay away from the switch panels. When one goes bad you can play He!! finding the right size replacement.

With a push/pull, all the drill holes are standard 3/8.
 
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Pat, All good advice so far. I will add a few personal preferences.1. Solder ALL connections, crimp on connectors/ splices just beg for corrosion trouble. 2. Then heat shrink or liquid tape all bare copper even on Wisc water ( I can't imangine dealing w/ salt water). 3. Build everthing for the worst possibilities such as swamping or replacing a fuse in the pitch dark while the boat is tossing around. 4. I have made it a priority on all my boats to do the best job of wiring possible because I don't want trouble that could be built out of a boat in July.
 
Then heat shrink or liquid tape all bare copper even on Wisc water ( I can't imangine dealing w/ salt water).
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We use all heat shrink connectors (can buy in bulk on-line) & once all connections are final, spray everything down with Corrosion X.

Other than changing a few fuses, I never touched the fuse panel on my flats boat for (10) ten years.
 
Pat, All good advice so far. I will add a few personal preferences.1. Solder ALL connections, crimp on connectors/ splices just beg for corrosion trouble. 2. Then heat shrink or liquid tape all bare copper even on Wisc water ( I can't imangine dealing w/ salt water). 3. Build everthing for the worst possibilities such as swamping or replacing a fuse in the pitch dark while the boat is tossing around. 4. I have made it a priority on all my boats to do the best job of wiring possible because I don't want trouble that could be built out of a boat in July.
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Tom, I know soldered connections sound superior, but I'd encourage you to take a look at ABYC standards. Solder is not considered acceptable as a sole means to fasten wires, yet crimp connectors are. Tinned marine with with tinned marine connectors is considered the standard method by the industry as guided by ABYC. Using adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing over crimp connectors anywhere water contact is expected is a very nice touch.

Not saying that solder doesn't work, but, I believe that the reason ABYC went away from accepting simple soldered connectors is that the actual failure rate is higher and it has been found that crimp style connectors are superior.
 
Tod, I believe you and I have an opinion about that, (surprised?). That would be that a proper solder joint takes more skill to accomplish. What so many people confuse is a properly crimped joint vs a sloppy one that falls apart if you look at it hard. I have gotten so disgusted with cheap connectors and even worse sloppy work that I can hardly stand to look at it. I stand behind my opinion that a proper solder joint is a permanent connection. No matter what water has to be kept out of the wire. Another factor is marine wire vs general purpose electrical wire. Face it, there are probably more wrong ways to do wiring than right ways. I'm not trying to rattle anyones cage but I have seen soooo much BAD wiring that I had to pipe up on this one. Good luck to all.
 
Tom and Tod (or Ted or who ever you really are :>) )

I am too old school and have to side with Tom on this one but will admit to using crimps on occasion. As Tom stated, the whole key to problem-free wiring is GOOD workmanship. Seems to be a common theme in most everything doesn't it?

I too have seen wiring messes that defied logic and it was amazing that any thing at all worked in the mess at hand. Trailer wiring fits right in here as well.

I am sure either way will work just fine but to any one doing this,,, don't be afraid to learn the proper skills for the method you choose.
 
Tom and Tod (or Ted or who ever you really are :>) )

I am too old school and have to side with Tom on this one but will admit to using crimps on occasion. As Tom stated, the whole key to problem-free wiring is GOOD workmanship. Seems to be a common theme in most everything doesn't it?

I too have seen wiring messes that defied logic and it was amazing that any thing at all worked in the mess at hand. Trailer wiring fits right in here as well.

I am sure either way will work just fine but to any one doing this,,, don't be afraid to learn the proper skills for the method you choose.
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I agree Dave, either way works "just fine" most of the time, however, only one of the two methods fits the current standard. If you want to solder your crimp connectors on after crimping, that is OK and fits the standard.
 
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