Great South Bay Ice Scooter

[Dave Diefenderfer]

I was on Long Island this past weekend to attend the LIDCA Show and to visit with some of the wife's family. Several weeks ago, a short lived post on here alerted me to a group of boats on CL. I was fortunate to have seen it and responded to the seller then, back in January. He had several boats that he had acquired and was looking to move them. One that caught my eye was a 10ft long pumpkin seed that looked like a potential layout boat. On Saturday afternoon I was able to check out what he had, only to find out the pumpkin seed was spoken for. I was disappointed, but then considered what else was available. He had a pair of scooters. After sleeping on it, I went back to buy one Sunday morning. I had gone prepared to buy a boat, by packing some duct tape, blankets, and my bed extender.... unbeknownst to the wife! Always have bungees and ratchet straps in the truck too. So loading a 14ft boat into a short bed pickup, puts me slightly (2X+) over the 3ft allowable extension!



So here she is:








He had 2 of these identical in construction, but one was dry inside, and one was not! I took the dry boat. My plan is to vacuum out the inside, and treat her to a new coat of paint and some very minor repair. Really she needs nothing, but I need to make her mine by doing something! My real effort will be in documenting what I can, and building the lug sail rig that she is missing along with acquiring the additional tools needed to use and display her properly.


She came with oars, oarlocks, backboard, and canvas. Interestingly, both hulls have the same identical motor mounts too..... I will not touch that until I see if she can be towed. For my use, I plan to use as a layout mostly since Rufus' Kalash may find it's way to NC when he retires, unless I can hide it from him
Anyone with knowledge or contact on these old scooters, please chime in, I am anxious to learn all I can about her. Will be torn on what to work on to show at Tuckerton this year! Rollboat, Pondbox, or Scooter? The 1938 Neptune might look nice hanging of either the Rollboat or the Scooter?

 

[Steve Sanford]

Dave~

As I am delinquent in giving you the history of your find, I might as well use this forum to do so.

All~

Dave hauled his vessel down to the Long Island Maritime Museum at the end of my talk last Sunday - I am so glad he did. A number of experts were on hand to view it in the flesh and validate my impressions.

Below is a plywood version that I brought to my talk.

Here is what we know:

1. Dave's "new" Scooter was made by Dodge & Krowl, probably in the 1920s or 30s in Islip, NY. D & K had a boatshop on the east bank of Orowoc Creek. (My Grandfather worked in a fish market on the west side of Orowoc Creek until he moved to the Mattamuskeet area of NC in the mid-1950s.) Dodge & Krowl sold boats like this through Abercrombie & Fitch in Manhattan.

The previous owner was Tom Prudente - an ardent gunner and plumber from Port Washington on the north shore of Nassau County. He had told me - about 30 years ago - about his 2 D&K Scooters, but I never got up to see them. Tom passed away recently.

2. This is a "whaleback" type - meaning it had a low "chine/gunwale" and high-crowned decks so she would hide well in open water. She also has ice runners on her bottom so she could be dragged, piked, kedged or sailed over the ice - out to "air holes" which were the only duck habitat in town when Great South Bay iced over.

3. This same type was featured in our 2015 documentary When the Broadbill was King on Great South Bay.

http://stevenjaysanford.com/when-the-broadbill-was-king-on-great-south-bay/

The first "grand old man of Great South Bay" in our film was Schuyler Watts from West Islip. Sadly, he passed away in January of 2016 - but he did receive our public ratitude at our LIDCA Show last March. Schuyler had nothing but praise for the Dodge & Krowl Scooter - and he spoke unequivocally about the "right" grey color.

4. Schuyler's Scooter now belongs to Brandt Rising of Bay Shore. He brought it to our Show last March.

5. At my talk this past week was a plywood version of the D & K - now known as the Brud Skidmore. Here is Brud in the boatshop at East Islip Lumber - of which he was the proprietor - circa 1960. My Dad often did woodworking (cabinetry and boats) in that same shop, and I played there in my earliest years.

http://stevenjaysanford.com/skidmore-scooter-a-plywood-whaleback/

We had long thought this boat was built by Brud, but recently learned that it was built by Alton Westbrook of Great River. I restored it for the current owner - Red Oster - in 2015. We just moved it into the Suffolk County Historical Society in Riverhead for the next 6 months.

Before my rehabbing, this shows the high crown - a challenge in 1/4-inch plywood.

Here it is in "sea trials" after restoration.

NOTE: Two of the experts at the LIMM who got to see your boat were Preston Raynor of Islip - now 92 - in the Broadbill film - and Red Oster of Sayville, captain of the big broadbill rig featured in the live action.

Hope this helps - and best of luck with this sweet little gunning boat!

SJS

 

[Capt. John O]

The more I look at these boats they make me wonder if the white cap layout boat was derived from the design?

 

[Tim Rousseau]

I was fortunate enough to hunt with Mr. Watts many times when I was growing up, he was a friend of my dads and they gunned together for many years. He was a tough old guy that I learned a lot from when it came to scooter shooting, and always stressed the light grey almost white color of the scooter. I loved his clam boat that we ran the rig off of. Here is a picture I took in 2007 when I was 18, good times and great memories!

 

[Tim Rousseau]

I would love to be able of hook my way out to an ice hole late in the season for a hunt, could be a great demonstration of how they were meant to be used.

 

[Phil Eager]

hey Davethat sucker will tow put the towing ring 6 inches back from where you think it should be nice find 'the long island guys had this figured out a long time ago








phil

 

[Steve Sanford]

Tim~

IF we get the right conditions next January - AND IF I can find a spot to launch over the beach without certain imprisonment by the local gendarmes, we should stage a Scooter Celebration in 2017. Mine is ready-to-hunt. I just hauled it back to the farm after it sat forlornly in my Mom's yard all season, waiting for some ice.

All the best,

SJS

 

[Dave Diefenderfer]

Phil, it currently has an eye that sits on the front deck, right at the bow. It stands upright, and would be a lot of torque on it to try and tow by it. I am thinking I need to install a solid padeye, bolted through to a backer under the hull. A foot back or so? Should I install 2 outboard under the hull to use a bridle?

 

[Dave Diefenderfer]

I'll bring mine! Heck, I want to bring it up to sail it too! I know this guy who does beautiful watercolor paintings of classic boats in use.

 

[Steve Sanford]

Phil and Dave~

I'm not sure that the towing ring placement would work on these Dodge & Krowls. They have little rocker and were notorious for nosing under when towed - unless snubbed up right behind an inboard's transom for a slow ride. Watts, Skidmore and Rising all stowed theirs crosswise on the foredecks of the "mother ships".

(On the other hand, my Hallock Scooter - the TED SANFORD - tows beautifully.....)

All the best,

SJS

 

[Dave Diefenderfer]

Steve/Tim, any idea who I might talk to about how to build the sail rig for this? I am thinking that upright eye on the bow may be for the steering jib? Based on the mast step diameter, it appears a rather stout mast was used, which makes sense if it is unstayed and supported a steering jib. I'll get some photos this weekend of some of the hardware along the inside of the cockpit that has me puzzled. Almost looks like it would support a blind curtain? Lots of questions at this point.

 

[Steve Sanford]

Dave~

It would be worth asking the LIMM if they have any gunning rigs for their Scooters - they have perhaps 8 or 10 gunning Scooters. I built a mast and sprit for mine many years ago - but never made a sail.

I think most gunning Scooters did not have the steering jib - but I do not know that for sure. The idea is that they just sailed off the wind.

All the best,

SJS

 

[Tim Rousseau]

Steve/Tim, any idea who I might talk to about how to build the sail rig for this? I am thinking that upright eye on the bow may be for the steering jib? Based on the mast step diameter, it appears a rather stout mast was used, which makes sense if it is unstayed and supported a steering jib. I'll get some photos this weekend of some of the hardware along the inside of the cockpit that has me puzzled. Almost looks like it would support a blind curtain? Lots of questions at this point.

Next time you back up on Long Island, my dad has another Iceboat in his possession with full sail rig that you can check out. I will try to post pictures but it is hard for me on my IPad on the website. We have always tried to meet up in the past.

 

[Tim Rousseau]

Ok I dug up one picture of the ice scooter my dad saved from getting cut up, it came with a full sail rig and the boat had no rot. It has runners and copper sheathing on the chines. Great piece of history that we would love to see go to a good home. Looking for a whaleback type myself.

 

[Dave Diefenderfer]

I'll pm you the phone number of the guy when I get to my office that still has the mate to mine.

 

[Dave Diefenderfer]

Thanks Steve, for the details. I contacted the Long Island Maritime Museum. They do not have hunting sail rigs in their collection. They then gave me the contact info for a trustee that has a D & K scooter and is a duck hunter too. Unfortunately, he does not have a sail rig either but may have some pictures. Some reading confirmed as you noted that the early hunting rigs were sprit sail rigs, which makes life easier. So now I am looking for a dingy sail or will make one. Maybe in addition to the canvas work, I can ask mom to try sail making!

 

[Steve Sanford]

Good morning, Dave~

I built a mast and a sprit years ago - but never did sew up a sail. I got as far as buying a book a couple of years back. Let's keep in touch on this and see if we can wind up in similar spots. I will try to haul them down from the loft in a couple of weeks and share some measurements, etc.

Also, I am intrigued by Tuckerton. I was there only once about 10 years ago. Youth Waterfowl Weekend always gets in the way up here. There is apparently an opportunity to show restored duckboats. I've got 2 here that need attention - and maybe I could haul one south in late September.

What can you tell me about restored boats there?

All the best,

SJS

 

[Mike Rowinsky]

Dave,

Might that sail I gave you serve as an acceptable template? Or at least a starting point for reference?

I'd would be worth the drive just to watch an ice rig sailed on ice then across a slush hole and back up on the ice. Interesting!!!

 

[Dave Diefenderfer]

Mike, I finally unraveled the sail you dropped with me. There was not enough there to make heads or tails of. It was turning to powder in my fingers. It was for a much larger boat however, as the spar you left with me is a boom, and not a mast, and over 10ft long. I salvaged the hardware and the boom, but the sail and lines were discarded. I contemplated using the boom as my new mast but it is not large enough in diameter so I will save it for one of the spars when I make the true sailing rig in the future.


Thanks!

 

[Mike Rowinsky]

I'm very happy you were able to salvage any of it. It was a true pleasure to meet you and your wife. One of these times I'll drag my rigs to a NJ Swap/Meet-up day and we'll meet again.