If you had power, what laws would you change?

John Robinson

Well-known member
The debate on spinning wing decoys on the other threads surprised me, and it brought up other issues such as why are live decoys outlawed. I believe a lot of these laws date back to the early 20th century when a combination of market hunting, zero game laws, drought and loss of habitat almost annililated waterfowl populations across North America. Now after many decades of good game management, DU and other conservation efforts, things look pretty good, and we might want to reconsider the need and effectiveness of some certain regs that came about in that dark hour. For example why not let hunters use old damascus barreled eight guages, would that be a bad thing. How about live decoys, as someone said on the other thread, raising and training ducks could become a sport of it's own the way retriever training has. How many would place a restriction on the spinning wing decoy and why? Should we limit guns to two shots, is three just right or how about four shots? Any other ideas?

I'm just throwing this out there as a hypothetical wish list of regs. Basically I'm happy with the way things are.

John
 
That really was my point. I wonder what laws could be changed. We live in a very different world now than 1918 when many current regulations were put in place. Why is it okay to say "it's allowed in ther regulations" for one method (spinners), and others excluded (8 guage, live decoys, punt guns, etc). I would love to hunt snows over my captive birds as they did with the fliers in Massachusetts. How many other would want to...probably not many, and I doubt there would be any impact on harvest. I'm not dis-satisifed with current rules, but believe the sheeple approach of "it's allowed" or "it's not allowed" without thought and discussion is laughable.

Clint
 
I believe the average 8ga only shot a 3" shell. Now that 12ga and 10ga are shooting 3 1/2" shells, I would like to see all 8ga manufactured before 2000 legalized for waterfowling as historic/antique weaponry.
 
Where you miss the mark Clint is that for many years baiting, live callers, 8 gauge guns etc.... were allowed and legal. Eventually they were outlawed when proven to be disadvantageous to duck pouplations. It wasn't like live birds came on the scene and were immediately outlawed. Spinners have been around for how long? 5-7 years maybe. I don't see the decimation in the total duck population that many have claimed the spinners were going to cause. I just went to the USFW site and most reports on duck populations since 2005 talk about the increase in total ducks, not a large decrease. Just cause one group doesn't like them is no reason to get rid of something. Sound like a damn liberal if it is thought that the govenment has to step in everytime someone's feelings are hurt.

I'd love to see hunting over live birds made legal. I don't know why but it just seems like it would add a whole new dimension to the sport.

There are also some laws I'd love to see outlawed. How about 100+ day seasons in some States. Why is this right? Should also outlaw early seasons as there is no reason to have them IMO. All this allows is the killing of more ducks.Maybe we should get rid of all the new non toxic shot with the exception of steel. All it does is encourage people to shoot at birds that are farther away which means more cripples and more dead ducks.

As you can tell, I'm throwing gas on the flames (with the exception of live suzies - that would be cool).

Good question.

Mark W
 
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Mark,

Why don't you tell me a little history about the use of live decoys? You wanted to hear stories from someone who has used then in North America? You seem to have no clue as to when they were outlawed or why. Would you please show me why they were "eventually" outlawed? Maybe habitat loss?? rather than live decoys or 8 guages?? Where is the study showing live decoys were disadvantagous to duck populations? Maybe you ought to know something about what you're spouting off about.

Live decoys were and have been, and still are used in certain countries for hundreds of years, and we still have ducks. Guess I'm missing tha mark again...

Clint
 
Federal laws? Easy, grandfather in 8 bore guns to be allowed again. Most 8's were shoulder guns and were not used in flock shooting and killing mutliple birds. They were used as longer range and more effective killing and reading any literature of the time proves so. I and many others believe they were orginally added because of politics. None of the big US gun makers at the time were making 8's and to steer new sales to them and their 10 and 12ga repeaters what a better way than to get the competition banned.

A typical 8 bore load at the time is equivelent or less shot than modern 10ga and 3 1/2" 12ga loads. Besides all are damascous barrels and shell pressures need to be way below modern loads for any guage. With current bag limits and only allowing pre-existing guns to be used there shouldn't be any problems. For more info look at Sherman Bell's recent articles in Double Gun Journal in the last year or 2.
 
i agree 100% i have shot 8 bores on waterfowl in UK- and at private clubs here in the states on flight birds- and have also shot 3 1/2 12 bore guns that knocked me around 3 times the 8 bore- and if there is a limit of 6 ducks - what does it matter what bore the gun is? i have asked my Game wardens and they do not have an answer- i own 3 8 bores and have briley chamers mates to shoot 10 bore out of them- but i think the 8 bore is a true waterfowlers gun- with the right loads, its not a long range-sky busting gun- but a true swinging and low preassure gun thats perfect at 30- 40 yrds -better shot strings- and more even patterns- My opinion- thanks
 

The one law or change that I would like to see is the federal regulation of season by days to season by birds taken...Instead of the established 60, 90, 100 and split season I would like to see a possible 360 duck and 200 geese limit as an example no matter what state you hunt and this limit would then be split into some ratio of species (each bird would have a max number that could be split by bag as an example: 240 mallards or 160 mallards, 100 woodies, and etc...) Once you reached your 360 bird limit your done for the year...There would be a season start and finish for all states..Sept 1 to January 31st...

The kicker is that you have to register the birds at a specific location within the county sanctioned by State but run with the help of DU/Delta waterfowl...The amount of information passed through this system would be beneficial from a biology standpoint in being able to collect large amounts of information on waterfowl at a specific time...It would be a far greater data source instead of the end of year HIP...How many did you kill...What did you kill...Did you snipe hunt...Crow...Etc...

A reality not a perception is that most of us hunting on this site probably hunt as a whole only 20% of the season or less...Taken into account that each hunter have days when rarely shoot a limit and days when it takes us the next four or five hunts to even shoot six birds...(Granted there are a percentage of those who have the ability to hunt specific areas that continuously produce but those are in the select percentage of less than 2% of the group and I am not one of them)...I believe it would remove some misconceptions of whether or not the population is going to good or bad...Nature has a way of surviving...Who says birds are still breeding in the Boreal Forest region...This next statement is purely fiction in numbers but is happening more often: Hell, hole nine at Riverdale Country Club had 25 pairs of breeding mallards this year...

My statements are only coming from my 5 year history of looking at my hunting log...In those five years there was only year that I was able to hunt more than 20 days...My longest season I hunted a an accumulationl of 63 days shot 163 birds through four states (OH, with Rodney Milburn, near Clare, MI, Northern Indiana, and of course my home state of Kentucky)...My lowest season I hunted 13 days and shot 32 birds in the great state of Indiana where an Indiana limit in most cases is One bird per man...Based on this the chances of the population filling their tags a season is very slim except for those exception few..

Just some food for thought...I know there are a lot of unknown in regards to changing to a law like this...Just conversation...


Regards,

Special K
 
I think we need a point system. It kept my mind in shape remembering what order I shot the ducks in. wink wink :)

I wish duck producing states could have a teal season. I would love to hunt bluewings in early september when they are thick here.

Tim
 
Jeez Clint, I never ever said I knew anything about the use of live decoys and even stated this in a thread sometime this morning. I even said I had a stupid question relating to the use of live birds. And your right, I have no clue. I even posted on this site that I know nothing about live ducks. All I know is that they were used and outlawed. A little searching on the web revealed the following

"Live decoys were usually raised from ducklings or purchased for the purpose. The loudest specimens were chosen for the job. Two or three females were set out on the pond or lake out of sight of one another and would begin to call to each other and any ducks flying overhead. A 1932 federal law limited the number of live decoys a hunter could put out to 25, and three years later live decoys and baiting were made illegal."

And this

"By Lowell Washburn

As Iowa waterfowlers anxiously prepare for this year's duck opener, there is one type of decoy that hunters won't be allowed to take into the field. In fact, of all the waterfowl decoys ever devised, it's the only one that has proven so completely effective that its use has been outlawed in every state, province, and territory in North America. That deadliest of decoys is the live English call duck.
Loud mouths of the waterfowl world, English callers are pint-sized descendants of the wild mallard. Developed during the late 1800s in Europe, call ducks have but one purpose --- to make noise and plenty of it. Birds failing to make repeated, high volume attempts at luring wild ducks to within shooting range of their masters quickly found their own way to the hunter's stewpot.
But were live decoys really as effective as legend would claim? Old Time duck hunters who actually used the birds tell the story best. One of those bygone waterfowlers was Clear Lake's, Fred Quant. An early duck hunting mentor to my father, Quant was already too old to go afield by the time we first met. But I loved to hear Fred's stories and, as a curious 7-year-old, was totally fascinated with the boisterous flock of live callers he still maintained in a backyard coop.
According to Quant, old time call ducks were like fine bird dogs --- They simply loved doing what they were bred to do. A good English caller would talk to just about anything in the sky, he recalled. Passing flocks blackbirds, snipe, you name it. Anything with wings would trigger an immediate greeting. But most of all, live decoys loved the sight of other ducks. The closer wild flocks approached, the louder and more excited the clamor became.
Quant's methods were similar to those used by many Iowa hunters. After tossing out his spread of wooden decoys, a single live hen would be tethered to a nearby stake. The duck would begin calling as soon as wild birds were sighted. If the weather was unusually cold, live callers would receive periodic breaks. They knew the game well and eagerly looked forward to recess.
As break time arrived, Quant would carefully row his duck boat into the decoys and extend an oar to the weary bird. The call duck would quickly step onto the paddle. Once the oar was swung back over the gunwale, the bird would jump down and snuggle into the warmth of a small, straw filled compartment located below decks. A replacement caller would be secured, and the hunt would resume.
During the era of muzzleloading black powder shotguns, the skies above timber sheltered backwaters would often become completely obscured by the sulfurous white smoke of fire belching double barrels. Following a flurry of gunfire, the smoke could become so thick that retreating ducks were sometimes lost from view. Undaunted, the live callers would continue their noisy chatter. Upon hearing the siren song, departing flocks of mallards would often turn about and actually fly back through the cloud of smoke in an attempt to rejoin the decoys. Today, it is hard to determine whether this amazing phenomena was simply a stark testament to the live caller's deadly ability, or if it merely portrays how extremely plentiful and naive wild ducks once were.
Waterfowl enthusiast, George VanWyngarden had equally interesting accounts of his days afield with live callers. When we first met during the early 1970s, VanWyngarden still kept a flock of twenty or so callers at his Manson home.
"Of course, they're just pets these days," VanWyngarden explained. "But looking back, I think the call ducks added as much enjoyment to an outing as any other part of the hunt.
"They just seemed to bubble over with excitement, and their enthusiasm was contagious. We often used several ducks at a time, and they kind of fed off the excitement of the others," he added.
But even the best callers weren't necessarily perfect. Sometimes, especially during mild autumn weather, the ducks would develop a bit of a lazy streak.
"If wild ducks suddenly appeared and the callers didn't respond as quickly as we thought they should, we would pull out our duck calls and blow a couple of notes. Usually, that's all it would take to get the live decoys going," he chuckled.
In 1935, the use of all live decoys --- including the beloved English callers --- was forever banned. With hunters suddenly forced to rely on their own calling skills, the ban led to rapid improvements in the manufacture of commercial wooden duck calls.
"By today's standards, our old duck calls were really junk," recalled VanWyngarden. "They were just something we carried to wake up the call ducks. About half of the time, our calls were so clogged with pipe tobacco and weed seeds that they wouldn't even blow. When the live decoys were outlawed, people began to take duck calls more seriously. That's when the quality really began to improve."

I assumed, and have been told second hand (or more) that the reason they were outlawed was because they were so effective. I don't know first hand. I take back my above statement that says "disadvantageous to ducks" as I can't prove it." Sorry I don't have all my facts straight -

Mark W
 
I think we need a point system. It kept my mind in shape remembering what order I shot the ducks in. wink wink :)
Fits right into the technology discussion since no one has yet built an effective mallard hen, black duck or canvasback warmer for the 100-point frosting duck you mistakenly shoot at first light. Ahhhh, remember back when teal and bluebills cost a dime?
 
Hey Tim,

"I think we need a point system. It kept my mind in shape remembering what order I shot the ducks in. wink wink :) '

Didn't ya just finish a few years of a new form of the point system??

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Clint
 
I think we need a point system. It kept my mind in shape remembering what order I shot the ducks in. wink wink :)
Fits right into the technology discussion since no one has yet built an effective mallard hen, black duck or canvasback warmer for the 100-point frosting duck you mistakenly shoot at first light. Ahhhh, remember back when teal and bluebills cost a dime?

D.J.,
I thought mud was a good insulator? I may be getting old but the cheapest ducks I ever shot were 20 points. :)
I remember going to school on mondays and talking about hunting over the weekend. Someone would always say they limited out, Ask what they got and it would almost always include a hen mallard with several other ducks. I don't think I ever heard of one being shot first.

Clint,
I had nearly blocked that from my memory, thanks for reminding me.

Tim
 
I'll have to see if I can find a copy of the old Florida regs. There were several 10-pointers when I lived there in the early 80s.
 
I would like to see "blue laws" go away. The old state laws that took away hunting on Sundays is a thing of the past. It is very hard to justify the expense of waterfowling, especially in some of the east coast states I have lived in when you are getting a one day weekend hunt. Maryland's expenses were getting to the point of being ridiculous. I remember getting a blind permit in the county for $5.50 and the next year I went back and they said $25.00! I almost fell down. I said, "how can it go up so much, so fast, how can the hunt clubs afford this? Her answer was that it had been a couple years since they had raised the blind permit expense. She also said as long as you had continuous shoreline, all blinds could be tagged for one fee of $25. That seemed very unfair! A small time hunter has a hard time finding a place to hunt in southern Maryland. So you would probably have a blind here and there....costing you $25 EACH!.......... BUT......the big hunt clubs could have an entire marsh with 30 blinds all tagged for $25! I would also like to see EVERYONE pay their share. It burns me when I pay to go use a boat ramp or a picnic ground, but the couple walking the dog or mountain buiking the trails pay nothing. The guy that flies the remote control plane pays nothing, but I pay to camp, fish, hunt, etc. If it's state ground and there are fees for something, there are fees for EVERYTHING! I have also seen alot of campgrounds that MAKE you pull your boat out of the water every night. I think if you have a camp site and it's on the water, you should be able to park it at the water edge of your camp. But, they want to charge you EVERYDAY to use the boatramp. Any way to squeeze a buck out. As far as 8 guage...my 12 is just fine. Live birds? I remember how well our farm geese used to bring in that Canadas when I was growing up in Illinois. It was scary to see how effective these grey and white geese were at bringing in the wild birds. I would probably be against the live birds. Just my .02 cents.
 
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If you hunt on water you hunt with a dog or boat. I see lots of guys trying to "land" their kill close enough to get with waders...

up here it is limit in possession. You can give away birds or eat as many as you can, but they can't be "wasted" I would like to see that changes for certain species. I know hunters that have shot 300+ canada geese this year. Although not an issue on Canadas or snows, you could technically do the same on all species. I am sure it would be hard to regulate.
 
I can think of a hundred Fisheries laws that need changing. The NMFS and NYS are doing there best to put me out of business. I just had to pay $400 for a Saltwater fishing License for the Windy. Thats on top of the $250 I pay for a worthless Charterboat License. Now NYS has come up with a new Life Jacket Law. All persons must be wearing a life jacket while the boat is underway betwwen Nov. 1 and May 1. My customers can kill more Scoters than they can catch Fluke, Have a longer season at shooting them and the best part is they dont have to measure the ducks to see if they're legal
 
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