Is cedar too soft?

[Ryan Werden]

I'm going to install some cleats on the boat. I have some scrap cedar that I was thinking of using as a "backer" for the silicon bronze wood screws to bite into. The blocks I made are 3/4" thick. Do you think cedar is too soft for this application? I can stop at the yard and pick up some white oak or ash but I had this laying around.

 

[DeWayne Knight]

I definitely think cedar would be too soft for that application Ryan, assuming you mean cleats to tie the boat off to a dock or whatever. You could use the cedar, but drill through it and use panhead bolts with washers, lockwashers, and nuts.

 

[Bob B]

Use white oak/ pre drill for the screws or they will snap.

 

[Ryan Werden]

Thanks Guys. I was thinking that it would be, but thought I'd get some opinions. I'll swing by the lumber yard on the way home from work and pick up a small piece of white oak.

DeWayne - that was my original plan, to use bolts. Finding #12x2" by the piece proved to be difficult. I thought I had found what I needed at boltdepot but it turned out to be the wrong size. I switched to the wood screws for that reason.

 

[Eric Caswell]

Ryan,

I would include plastics to all of the above. UHMW will draw #14 screws through planks. Watch for UV issues with it though.

If you pre-drill what ever material you use and run the screws long enough to go clean through, you got all of your materials strength. Buck off the protruding screw flush with the block. I used to use a Jab saw I got from Snap On but discovered the air saw for cutting the screws.

Eric

 

[Ryan Werden]

Thanks Guys! I didn't even think of the scrap marine ply I have. I think the thickest I have is 3/8 but I can laminate a couple pieces together to get my 3/4.

Eric - A 3/4" backer block will be just right for that. My screw tip should come just short of breaking through.

 

[Dave Diefenderfer]

For a cleat, I would bolt through. There can be some serious stresses on a cleat and relying on just the thread tooth and the wood fibers even in plywood is questionable in my mind. But I do tend to overbuild. I used Azek deck (plastic 5/4") under each of my cleats. Screwed through using 5/16" SS oval head screws, fender washers and ny-lock nuts. The cleat, and the upper portion of the screws are bedded in 5200. Half the deck is going to give way before the cleats rip put! Just my humble opinion.... Dave

 

[tod osier]

For a cleat, I would bolt through. There can be some serious stresses on a cleat and relying on just the thread tooth and the wood fibers even in plywood is questionable in my mind. But I do tend to overbuild. I used Azek deck (plastic 5/4") under each of my cleats. Screwed through using 5/16" SS oval head screws, fender washers and ny-lock nuts. The cleat, and the upper portion of the screws are bedded in 5200. Half the deck is going to give way before the cleats rip put! Just my humble opinion.... Dave

I agree, use bolts, imagine the stresses on the cleat if you ever really needed it, like if you needed a tow or to tow someone in heavy seas.

 

[Ryan Werden]

For a cleat, I would bolt through. There can be some serious stresses on a cleat and relying on just the thread tooth and the wood fibers even in plywood is questionable in my mind. But I do tend to overbuild. I used Azek deck (plastic 5/4") under each of my cleats. Screwed through using 5/16" SS oval head screws, fender washers and ny-lock nuts. The cleat, and the upper portion of the screws are bedded in 5200. Half the deck is going to give way before the cleats rip put! Just my humble opinion.... Dave

I agree, use bolts, imagine the stresses on the cleat if you ever really needed it, like if you needed a tow or to tow someone in heavy seas.

Would there be any concern using SS bolts with the bronze cleats?

 

[Pete McMiller]

Ryan,

A technical answer would be - you 'might' have some opportunity for bimetalic corrosion due to dissimilar metals but practically I really doubt it, especially in fresh water. I'd use them.

 

[tod osier]

For a cleat, I would bolt through. There can be some serious stresses on a cleat and relying on just the thread tooth and the wood fibers even in plywood is questionable in my mind. But I do tend to overbuild. I used Azek deck (plastic 5/4") under each of my cleats. Screwed through using 5/16" SS oval head screws, fender washers and ny-lock nuts. The cleat, and the upper portion of the screws are bedded in 5200. Half the deck is going to give way before the cleats rip put! Just my humble opinion.... Dave

I agree, use bolts, imagine the stresses on the cleat if you ever really needed it, like if you needed a tow or to tow someone in heavy seas.

Would there be any concern using SS bolts with the bronze cleats?

Is that it looks tacky, enough of a reason ? SS is actually cheaper, but bronze does look nice, I had my fasteners SS, but changed them to bronze when I refit last summer. Most of the hardware sold as bronze is more brassy these days and silicon bronze fasteners are true bronze. So you have greenish hardware with brown fasteners.

As far as corrosion, I don't think it is much of an issus as Pete said.

T

 

[Ryan Werden]

For a cleat, I would bolt through. There can be some serious stresses on a cleat and relying on just the thread tooth and the wood fibers even in plywood is questionable in my mind. But I do tend to overbuild. I used Azek deck (plastic 5/4") under each of my cleats. Screwed through using 5/16" SS oval head screws, fender washers and ny-lock nuts. The cleat, and the upper portion of the screws are bedded in 5200. Half the deck is going to give way before the cleats rip put! Just my humble opinion.... Dave

I agree, use bolts, imagine the stresses on the cleat if you ever really needed it, like if you needed a tow or to tow someone in heavy seas.

Would there be any concern using SS bolts with the bronze cleats?

Is that it looks tacky, enough of a reason ? SS is actually cheaper, but bronze does look nice, I had my fasteners SS, but changed them to bronze when I refit last summer. Most of the hardware sold as bronze is more brassy these days and silicon bronze fasteners are true bronze. So you have greenish hardware with brown fasteners.

As far as corrosion, I don't think it is much of an issus as Pete said.

T

Yea, yea...I know. If I didn't have to buy a box of 50 or 100 I'd stay with the bronze. Turns out boltdepot didn't have what I needed. That's why I switched gears to the wood screws. Maybe I'll just paint the heads of the SS bolts gold .

Ryan

 

[Eric Dellamater]

the reason for NOT using 5200 is for WHEN you need to repair or replace the hardware (or do rot rehab in a local area) since the 5200 is SO tenacious it will often not want to let go and cause major headaches. Most guys use a heat gun and knife to cut the bond, but it can cause major issues. Most of the wooden boat guys who have routine maintence/paint/varnish schedules will always bed it in more of a polysulfide type thing that will seal, but not "GLUE" it to the wood.

At least that is what I always hear when it comes to this arguement.

 

[Pete McMiller]

You know I wondered about that when I first put it on my BB3 but then had to move/remove something and found that it can be cut with a knife just fine. Also, it grinds pretty good when you want to clean up the residue.

 

[tod osier]

the reason for NOT using 5200 is for WHEN you need to repair or replace the hardware (or do rot rehab in a local area) since the 5200 is SO tenacious it will often not want to let go and cause major headaches. Most guys use a heat gun and knife to cut the bond, but it can cause major issues. Most of the wooden boat guys who have routine maintence/paint/varnish schedules will always bed it in more of a polysulfide type thing that will seal, but not "GLUE" it to the wood.

At least that is what I always hear when it comes to this arguement.

I can see that argument, but I agree with Pete on the removal. last summer I removed 2 chocks and 2 cleats to move them that were 5200ed on and it was no big deal. They cleaned up nice and the spot that was left with lightly carressed off with the polisher sander.

 

[tod osier]

For a cleat, I would bolt through. There can be some serious stresses on a cleat and relying on just the thread tooth and the wood fibers even in plywood is questionable in my mind. But I do tend to overbuild. I used Azek deck (plastic 5/4") under each of my cleats. Screwed through using 5/16" SS oval head screws, fender washers and ny-lock nuts. The cleat, and the upper portion of the screws are bedded in 5200. Half the deck is going to give way before the cleats rip put! Just my humble opinion.... Dave

I agree, use bolts, imagine the stresses on the cleat if you ever really needed it, like if you needed a tow or to tow someone in heavy seas.

Would there be any concern using SS bolts with the bronze cleats?

Is that it looks tacky, enough of a reason ? SS is actually cheaper, but bronze does look nice, I had my fasteners SS, but changed them to bronze when I refit last summer. Most of the hardware sold as bronze is more brassy these days and silicon bronze fasteners are true bronze. So you have greenish hardware with brown fasteners.

As far as corrosion, I don't think it is much of an issus as Pete said.

T

Yea, yea...I know. If I didn't have to buy a box of 50 or 100 I'd stay with the bronze. Turns out boltdepot didn't have what I needed. That's why I switched gears to the wood screws. Maybe I'll just paint the heads of the SS bolts gold .

Ryan

I'm really surprised they didn't have what you wanted. I have the choice of several heads in the bolts I used, I thought size 12 was what you were looking for? If they don't have your length, get long and they can easily be cut to size.

 

[Eric Dellamater]

Pete, Tod,

I have not had much issue myself, I am just saying what I hear the arguement is over. I know wooden boat guys go nuts often when they even hear the word 5200.

Glad it was not an issue.