Layout boat description/regulation (Federal)?

Jeff Smith

Jeff Smith

Member
Even before I met Eric, fifteen years ago, I had the idea for a layout boat dancing around in my head. In the early 90's I had hunted out of a Busick layout a friend had built. Concealment was good but I felt the boat had many drawbacks. Those I hope to eliminate. Anyway, yesterday I spent some time on the computer trying to find the Federal description and regulations regarding layout boats without luck. Anybody have a link to them? Thanks.
 
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Jeff, The only regulation involving layout boats that I am aware of is the one I have highlighted below.

http://www.fws.gov/le/waterfowl-hunting-and-baiting.html

Overview of Other Regulations
Additional Federal and State regulations apply to waterfowl hunting, including those summarized below.
Illegal hunting methods. You cannot hunt waterfowl:
  • With a trap, snare, net, rifle, pistol, swivel gun, shotgun larger than 10 gauge, punt gun, battery gun, machine gun, fish hook, poison, drug, explosive, or stupefying substance.
  • From a sink box or any other low floating device that conceals you beneath the surface of the water.
  • From a motorboat or sailboat, unless you shut the motor off or furl the sail and the vessel is no longer in motion.
  • Using live birds as decoys.
  • While possessing any shot other than approved nontoxic shot.
  • From or by means, aid, or use of any motor vehicle, motor-driven land conveyance, or aircraft (if you are a paraplegic or are missing one or both legs, you may hunt from a stationary car or other stationary motor-driven land vehicle or conveyance).
  • Using recorded or electrically amplified bird calls or sounds, or imitations of these calls and sounds.
  • With a shotgun that can hold more than three shells, unless you plug it with a one-piece filler that cannot be removed without disassembling the gun.
 
Seems like the language "that conceals you beneath the surface of the water" is what makes a layout boat legal. In a layout, you are above the surface of the water.
 
Pete, thats not it. There are federal regulations for boat types. The closest boat types for layout boats are canoes/kayaks, rowboats, or outboard under 20 feet. Typically layout boats do not meet the definition of a kayak because the beam is to wide. So the Coast Guard puts them in the category of a rowboat unless a motor is added onto it. This means they need flotation, capacity label, HIN, and a certification label. I have a PDF of the chart showing all the different boat types but I cannot figure out how to download and attach. Here are some definitions from 33 CFR 183 of the legal definitions for boats.

Boat means any vessel?

(1) Manufactured or used primarily for noncommercial use;

(2) Leased, rented, or chartered to another for the latter's noncommercial use; or

(3) Operated as an uninspected passenger vessel subject to the requirements of 46 CFR chapter I, subchapter C.

Vessel includes every description of watercraft, other than a seaplane on the water, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on the water.

If you want more info on federal requirements for boat manufacturers search for 33 CFR 181 and 33 CFR 183. The US Codes for recreational boats is at 46 USC 43. 46 USC 4307 Prohibited Acts is a good thing for people to read. The legal codes are for the manufacturer and sale of boats recreational boats. For info on safety equipment or other regulations look here. http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/default.aspx

Darren
 
Pete, thats not it. There are federal regulations for boat types. The closest boat types for layout boats are canoes/kayaks, rowboats, or outboard under 20 feet. Typically layout boats do not meet the definition of a kayak because the beam is to wide. So the Coast Guard puts them in the category of a rowboat unless a motor is added onto it. This means they need flotation, capacity label, HIN, and a certification label. I have a PDF of the chart showing all the different boat types but I cannot figure out how to download and attach. Here are some definitions from 33 CFR 183 of the legal definitions for boats.

Boat means any vessel?

(1) Manufactured or used primarily for noncommercial use;

(2) Leased, rented, or chartered to another for the latter's noncommercial use; or

(3) Operated as an uninspected passenger vessel subject to the requirements of 46 CFR chapter I, subchapter C.

Vessel includes every description of watercraft, other than a seaplane on the water, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on the water.

If you want more info on federal requirements for boat manufacturers search for 33 CFR 181 and 33 CFR 183. The US Codes for recreational boats is at 46 USC 43. 46 USC 4307 Prohibited Acts is a good thing for people to read. The legal codes are for the manufacturer and sale of boats recreational boats. For info on safety equipment or other regulations look here. http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/default.aspx

Darren Not to nitpick Darren but a Busik style boat is not used for transportation.
Click to expand...
 
I have looked for years for a regulatory reference to the reason why layout boats have a half coffin in them. At some point in 2004 or abouts I saw a posting that some USFW warden type "allowed" no more than half an average person's thickness front to back to be below the water surface. A statement of "its in the regulations" was added to that allowance. Back then I had some time, and I read the CFR for Migratory bird management and there was no reference in federal law about the half an average person thickness. I even looked at some Federal Regestry Pre Ambles for the Feds and there was nothing referencing boats. The only reference in federal law that governs duck hunting is the fully concealed below the water surface. There may be some State laws that address this and provide some kind of minimum or maximum below the water surface, but there is no federal law.

That half a person thickness "thing" may have to more to do with an allowance for rough water when considering various hunting conditions. If its really choppy a small person could technically be completely under the water surface, even an average of the wave height/trough distance. A guy with a big belly would not be. Maybe the makers of layout boats decided to split the difference and design a boat with the half coffin in it so that unless its a kid laying down there is no way to have anyone more than half way under the average rough water surface height.

If you follow the USCG Backyard Boat Builder design requirements, and then allow that the person laying down can never be fully concealed below the surface of the water you should be fine.

The USGS regulations that address boats are moot on this issue.

http://cfr.regstoday.com/33cfr183.aspx

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/education_safety/safety/boatwater/backyardboatbuilders.pdf
 
I had a discussion about layout boxes with a PA fish and boat officer last fall. It pertained to the law requiring the wearing of a pfd in all boats under 16 ft from Nov to Mar. He said he didn't know if a layout box was considered a "boat" due to the fact it is not designed or used to transport people across the water. If that were the case it would mean there is not pfd requirement, signal device etc. requirements.
 
Darren

Pete posted the citation from 50 CFR 20.21(c) which defines a sinkbox as a low-floating device which is the answer to the original question. The full citation says that it is illegal to hunt:

(c) From or by means, aid, or use of a sinkbox or any other type of low floating device, having a depression affording the hunter a means of concealment beneath the surface of the water; ....

A layout boat could meet this definition if it provided a depression that concealed a hunter under the surface of the water. Layout boats are close to the line and I think the rule of thumb that is generally used in the field by Law Enforcement people is that if the boat allows more than 50% of a hunter's body to be under the surface of the water and is attached to the bottom then it is a sink box. Altering the footbox or body tray to place the hunter's body below the water surface places it in the sinkbox definition.
 
[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]"Vessel includes every description of watercraft, other than a seaplane on the water, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on the water.
Not to nitpick Darren but a Busik style boat is not used for transportation"

Howard, the key word is "capable" of being used for transportation. People use kayak paddles, oars, or attach small kicker motors on layouts including the Busik style so yes they are a vessel capable of being used as a means of transportation. The Coast Guard looks at layout boats as rowboats. Even if the boat is carried on another boat, dropped in the water, its still capable of being paddled which is a means of transportation. I don't make the rules. I'm just explaining a longstanding policy. If you have unique design that you feel the Coast Guard should take a look at call me at (202) 372-1077 [/font]
 
I had a discussion about layout boxes with a PA fish and boat officer last fall. It pertained to the law requiring the wearing of a pfd in all boats under 16 ft from Nov to Mar. He said he didn't know if a layout box was considered a "boat" due to the fact it is not designed or used to transport people across the water. If that were the case it would mean there is not pfd requirement, signal device etc. requirements.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry my comments to Darin Clark and Brad did not post the way I wanted.

Darin,
The PA officer is wrong. I hear what everyone is saying but this isn't the first time the question has been raised. Look a the description of boat.
Boat means any vessel?
Whats the definition of a vessel?
Vessel includes every description of watercraft, other than a seaplane on the water, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on the water.

A kayak is a vessel. They have hull identification numbers and the manufacturers are inspected by the Coast Guard. A layout boat is a boat and is a vessel because they are paddled like a canoe or kayak and some have a small motor. All have means of transportation. Legitimate layout boat builders have a manufacturer identification code and inspected by the Coast Guard. We would not do this if we did not consider them a boat.

Brad,
The [font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica] 50 CFR 20.21[/font] cites for illegail hunting does not apply to the definitions of boats or vessels. This just says you can't be hunting in a sinkbox that is concealed beneath the surface. And yes we also have regulations for submersibles.
 
Sorry my comments to Darin Clark and Brad did not post the way I wanted.

Darin,
The PA officer is wrong. I hear what everyone is saying but this isn't the first time the question has been raised. Look a the description of boat.
Boat means any vessel?
Whats the definition of a vessel?
Vessel includes every description of watercraft, other than a seaplane on the water, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on the water.

A kayak is a vessel. They have hull identification numbers and the manufacturers are inspected by the Coast Guard. A layout boat is a boat and is a vessel because they are paddled like a canoe or kayak and some have a small motor. All have means of transportation. Legitimate layout boat builders have a manufacturer identification code and inspected by the Coast Guard. We would not do this if we did not consider them a boat.

Brad,
The [font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]50 CFR 20.21[/font] cites for illegail hunting does not apply to the definitions of boats or vessels. This just says you can't be hunting in a sinkbox that is concealed beneath the surface. And yes we also have regulations for submersibles.
Click to expand...


Darren I totally get your reasoning for Deterimining a layout as a boat and vessel. BUT they are not meant to me moved and we tell all our buyers this. they are a stationary platform. Are float tubes inspected and required to meat USCG regulations? They too can be paddled.

I think Layout boats is pushing the envelope just a little here, But we dont mind as we would prefer to be on the safe side with all out products, Boat or not. LOL

I also understand that just because the transom with is more than halve the width of the widest beam this eliminates them from canoes or kayaks.

Layouts are a very tricky product because they must be designed correctly to work as they are supposed to and to meet USCG standards because they are indeed a boat. Most all designs that work are already being made and the design means everything. SO much that we Copyrighted our latest design to prevent it from being copied.

People will copy a boat and steal the design in minutes. Just look around at the layout boats being built now days. many were designed from The Busick plans that we own and became a marketed fiberglass product. Same with TDB boats. look at how many guys have knocked them off as well.

Luckily now new designs can be protected. So if you got a new design pony up the funds and get it protected before someone steals it.
 
This may come across a little wrong to some of you but... For god sake, it's a little one man floating thing. Not a boat with an engine, or otherwise, designed to transport anyone anywhere. A layout can be picked up by a couple of guys and thrown around. Just make one and use it. Make it as safe as you feel comfortable with. You really don't need the government to tell you whether or not your little boat is safe. You should be able to determine this all by yourself.

Do they expect you to register a layout? a canoe? A sunfish? A Kayak? A surfboard? I understand that you guys up north have to deal with some ridiculous regulations. I know I would have a hard time actually paying them their damn money. It just seems offensive and is a shinning example of what's wrong with our country.

It would have never in a million years occurred to me to consider what uncle sam had to say about the sea-worthyness of my lay out boat. I understand that it needs to be legal as a hunting device. but coast guard certified, registered, meet specific regulations. That's insane. No game warden or marine patrol officer I've ever known in NC would even bother looking at your layout unless they were just interested in it personally.

Back when I registered my homemade duckboat here in NC the process went as follows: Go to NCwildlife.org, go to boat registration page, select homemade boat, pay $30. And that was for a real boat.

And you HAVE to wear a life jacket??? Do they hold your !@#$ when you pee too?

Sorry I'm rambling. This just hit a nerve with me.
 
Tony,
[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Some may be meant to be stationary but most get paddled. As a overall class of boats, layouts fall into the rowboat category. YES, float tubes are inspected by the Coast Guard and manufacturers are supposed to have MIC's and HIN's. That's all that applies to a non-motorized float tube. Some states require them to be numbered by the state. I know it sounds crazy but in 1995 an official vessel determination of float tubes was asked by a state and it ended up meeting the requirements for vessels. Read this for float tube info. The first two pages address the question of numbering for motorized float tubes. Page 3 and 4 address the non-motorized float tube question which relates to this topic.

[/font] http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/vessel_determinations.aspx
 
I just noticed your from Alabama. I'm sorry, I just assumed someone asking such a question would be from NJ or NY or somewhere up there. I wouldn't think anyone down there would care about your layout boat. Maybe I'm just loosing it.
 
Brad,
The [font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica] 50 CFR 20.21[/font] cites for illegail hunting does not apply to the definitions of boats or vessels. This just says you can't be hunting in a sinkbox that is concealed beneath the surface. And yes we also have regulations for submersibles.
Click to expand...

Darren, I wasn't disputing that a layout boat is a vessel subject to 33 CFR 183. I think Pete, Pat, Ray and I were interpreting the question about the layout boat as being what defines a illegal sinkbox versus a legal layout boat for the purposes of hunting waterfowl. I cited the applicable Federal statute for that question. If the question what defines a vessel or a boat under Federal law then you provided the appropriate citation.
 
Tony,
[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Some may be meant to be stationary but most get paddled. As a overall class of boats, layouts fall into the rowboat category. YES, float tubes are inspected by the Coast Guard and manufacturers are supposed to have MIC's and HIN's. That's all that applies to a non-motorized float tube. Some states require them to be numbered by the state. I know it sounds crazy but in 1995 an official vessel determination of float tubes was asked by a state and it ended up meeting the requirements for vessels. Read this for float tube info. The first two pages address the question of numbering for motorized float tubes. Page 3 and 4 address the non-motorized float tube question which relates to this topic.

[/font]http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/vessel_determinations.aspx
Click to expand...


True Open water layouts should not be towed or motored. Not many guys claim to have a layout but there are variations to the term layout boat. MOST are marsh boats NOT designed for open water hunting. I only know of 1 manufacturer who actually advertises his boats as being able to paddle.

We use our layouts in the middle of a big lake and wade to and from them. We do NOT move them as most do not move them.
 
Darren, I understand what you are saying but this doesn't apply to back yard boat builders does it? I assume you are talking about a manufacturer "offering boats for sale" not those of us making a one-of-kind boat.
 
Well, I don't hunt from a layout boat, but I saw one once on the internet and that entitles to me to pretend I'm an expert and argue. LOL!

With respect to the laws prohibiting sink boxes, I think the key issue for determining whether a layout boat violates the law would be whether the hunter's body is beneath the deck of the boat, or whether it's covered by water. I suppose a warden could try to climb into a layout with me and estimated whether half of me is above or below the water surface, but it seems to me that would be kind of silly if what is covering my legs and belly is the boat deck, and not the water. And I'm sure a clever lawyer could argue about how that was or was not measured. It seems pretty clear to me that the law was not written to address most modern layout designs--unless they are designed to have only the cockpit combing above the water surface with most of the boat submerged. Legal or not, I'm not getting into a boat designed to be used like that, purely for safety reasons.

As for floatation and the like and meeting the Coast Guard rules, I leave that to the lawyers the coasties. I'd just say that the most important question is not what the law requires and whether you can find a good argument why the law does or does not apply to your particular boat. Given how layouts are used, especially on big water, it's more important that they are designed to be safe. Swamping a layout due to clumsy entry or exit or unexpected waves seems pretty easy to me, so having enough floatation to avoid sinking in that situation would be important if I was using the boat in big water or cold water. If all your hunting is in a hard-bottom, shallow, warm pond, you may have less to worry about.
 
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