NDR - Planting flowers under pine trees

A

Andrew Holley

Well-known member
Alright this isn't even close to duck hunting or boat building, but there are guys on the board with alot of info, so here goes.

Back of my property has row of large pine trees, with the bottom limb dying off from lack of sun. Last year my wife cut off alot of the branches and tried planting hostas and flowers, but they didn't amount to anything (most didn't even grow). I thought was all the needles does something to the soil, like a black walnut tree. Is this correct? Is there anything I can add to the soil, so we can get something to grow there? For the past five years, I have been adding and stirring up cedar mulch.

Thanks much for your input
 
It's probably the ph in the soil is to high. When I break new ground for planting my go to mixture is 10-10-10 and lime. The lime "sweetens" the soil and the 10-10-10 adds nutrients that have been robbed for so many years. Do you have a tiller? I suggest tilling up the soil let it air for a few days spread a mixture of lime fertilizer and till again to mix it up well. Adding potting soil or peat moss will help if your soil isn't desirable. If it is sandy the potting soil will help to take out some of the acidity. If it is clay or very wet soil the peat moss will give it some drainage to prevent the root rot. I hope this helps.
 
The only things that grow under mine is weeds. Last year, I cut all the branches up about 4' because I was sick and tired of trimming the grass at the edge where I couldn't mow without getting them caught in the deck. My wife has tulips and violets around the pine stump next to our driveway, I cut that bastard down last year because it was dripping sap on my truck and dropping pine cone projectiles(when I hit them with the mower). That tree had 6' before the lowest branches so stuff got sunlight. Deer and rabbits think Hosta's are candy..you sure it wasn't them that kept them from growing?
 
Andrew,

You're fighting a losing battle unless you find something that "likes" to grow under pine trees. Several problems including the main fact that the pines get any rain that falls so the underside is generally very dry. Also, you have the PH issues like Leslie said. Best advice I could give you is to stop by or call the County Extension office of the UW in GB and ask them. I'm pretty sure they have a published pamphlet or bulletin on this subject.

Pete
 
These guys are right. Even if you had a way to get water and sun past the branches and roots, pines grow in acidic soil (and maybe even add to the acidity). I think if you add lime or whatever, it may just damage the pines.

Check with your county extension agent, or else just stop at a good LOCAL nursery and see what they suggest. (Don't bother asking the pimply faced kid in the red vest at the Lowe's or Wal-mart).

Good luck,
 
Andrew,

As has been said already, not too much is going to grow under the pine trees. Their needles will tend to acidify the soil. Their roots will out-compete most newly established plants for water and nutrients. Adding lime will help raise the pH. To be effective you will need to mix it in the the top 6 inches of soil. Pine tree roots won't like the mixing or the rise in pH. This will reduce the availability of iron to the pine trees and they may become chlorotic, yellow.

Here are some options. Create a flowerbed in the lawn just outside of the pine tree dripline. They won't get shaded, the should be out of the trees main root system so water and nutrients will not be a problem. You 'should' be able to plant whatever does well in your area and soils in that bed. Choosing acid loving plants might be a good idea. I don't know what does well in your area but here are a few of the choices, azalea, rhododendron, blueberries-fruiting or ornamental.

Your county extension office is a good resource for lots of information. You already pay for it with your taxes and they have nothing to sell you. They may be able to do a soil test for you. They can provide lists of plants appropriate for your location and soil type. They may even have volunteer master gardeners that can help with advice throughout the summer.

Tom, former County Extension Agent
 
part of what you are dealing with is a growth progression. PIne trees are a step toward an area becoming a climax forest which is Beech/Maple in our area...though I've forgotten a bunch of that stuff from when I taught Biology 30 years ago. Each set of plants prepares the soil for the next generation of trees. Pine prepares the soil for the next step of trees and most other stuff will not grow there. Check with a good, family run, garden center (folks should know their stuff at a place like that) and find out what you might be able to do. You may be able to dig out a plot area, put in new soil and grow what you want.
Lou
 
I've got to say, the tulips and wild violets did well under the pine near the driveway but they got plenty of sun and water. The stump was/is gonna get carved into something..or chopped off and grubbed out...yuck!
 
Andrew, the needles add some acidity to the soil, along with the pretty massive amounts of shade that pines can generate. The fallen needles just create a carpet, almost like the tree making its own mulch. The old-growth pine forests down here were called "Pine Barrens" because there was almost no other plant growth underneath, which meant little to no food for wildlife, which meant little to no (game) wildlife.

I think Lee is also onto your solution if you planted hostas. Rabbits and deer view them as salad. Our front bed (heavily shaded by oaks and by the house) has a great row of hostas, and just after they get up nicely, it looks like someone went through with a ruler and scissors. They are nipped off to about an inch off the ground. Laura keeps them in the beds as a treat for the deer now...she has given up on ever having a good bed full of hostas.

If you really want something there, you might contact a nursery/landscaper...they may be able to pinpoint species of annual or perennial that have the high shade tolerance and will take a more acidic soil. And I'm sure they would have the plants for sale, so you give them a little business in return for the expertise...

Just a guess.
 
Oh, man, you must have been bad in a past life or something. Just mumble something about having found a guy with dynamite to blast out the stump...it will be gone before you can even touch it.

Speaking of "bad", Lee, I was a total ass last week. I had nothing to gain by proving I was right, except proving that I was right, and I'm sorry.
 
I'm afraid a stick of dynomite would flip my driveway and 45 degree the corner of my garage. Hey, teaching an old fart new things isn't being an ass. I actually appreciated the botany lesson.
 
I know the rabbits didn't get them as I shoot about a rabbit a week during the summer and lets just say the deer have learned to stay away too (sometimes having a crazy neighbor has it's advantages).

I remember my dad saying lime sweetened the soil, but couldn't remember just what that meant. So does lime reduce the acidity?

I personally would like to just cut the trees down and start over with a hedge, by the time I would sell this place, the hedge would be looking pretty good. But cutting down trees now days just because they don't look right, goes against something in me.

Guess I am going to try some lime and let her buy a few more plants, thanks guys for the input.
 
Andrew,

Lime, calcium carbonate, will neitralize some of the acidity in the soil. You want to work it in as much as possible, it will not move down in the soil on its own. Since it is a fairly small area you may want to try dolomite/dolomitic lime. It is a mixture of calcium carbonate and magnessium carbonate. The added magnessium will help green things up. Magnessium is to chlorophyl like iron is to hemoglobin. A little balanced fertilizer, 10-10-10 or something similar, spread with the lime will help too.

Tom
 
truck eagle 005 (Small).jpgAndrew, I have a few pines, too many. The grass doesn't even grow under them at a certain point, so out they go. I just make sure they are big enough to get some lumber out of them.
The stump in the picture took a solid eight hours to get out. Never again! I had four trees to remove. The first one I did by hand then a neighbor had a fellow with front end loader to build a road. The man agreed to remove the rest of the stumps. Pulled up to the first stump and the machine died. Long story short They came back with a cat to move the front end loader and get loaded on the trailer and asked if they could leave the cat over night on my place.Sure enough. When they came back to get the Cat they removed the stumps in fifteen minuites. I asked how much? No charge.

Lime is a good thing. Also the variety of Hostas is important some are more shade tolerent. Hostas I have planted take a few years to get established. Blue Giant and Blue Shadows are good ones for full shade.

As a last resort Plastic flowers work too. I have the first tulips in the neighbor hood. hee hee
 
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Well, I live in the "Pine Belt", and am landscaping the second property I've owned since I moved here 9 years ago. The thing with pines is that they grown in poor soil, and something about the breakdown of pine needles over the years leads to a very poor (as in nutrient poor) usually acidic soil. My wife and I both grew up in alluvial flood plains in South Louisiana (oaks, not pines) where you never need to fertilize anything, and she fought me all the time when I wanted to put out a ton of fertilizer, because you can just look at what's growing around here and see that the dirt (red, sandy clay) cain't be too good. Anyway, to prove it to her I finally had the dirt analyzed by the county agent. It was extremely low in phosphorus and potassium (they don't comment on nitrogen). So we have been fertilizing appropriately, and it's bags and bags of the stuff. There's hardly anything we can't grow under pines without the appropriate amendments to the soil, enough water and fertilizer. My neighbor even had a vegetable garden, tomatos and all, right up under a bunch of pines, wouldn't think there'd be enough sun. Call the county agent and ask him to test your soil.

Ed.
 
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