Neutering, Yes or No?

M

Matt

Active member
I need some input from the guys with more wisdom on the subject. I have a 9 year old male black lab. Got him when I was 20 and since we only had mutts growing up he was my first gun dog. I trained him with a friends help, books and DVD's. He turned out to be a fantastic duck dog and house pet at the same time. He is calm, doesn't hump and shows NO aggressive behavior. It's time to start thinking about getting another dog and I have a few questions
1) Does Neutering alter the physical traits of the dog? Will the dog fully develop healthy muscle structure and so on if he's clipped?

2) Is there any difference in "drive"?

3) Possible health problems?

4) Does it make sense to neuter the dog, I have no intentions of breeding, there are WAY too many dogs and good breeders out there but my current dog has been great and he's got his.

Any input would be great. I know more than likely the responses will be opinions but some of you guys should have a pretty well informed opinion from expierence.
Thanks
Matt
 
I've been thinking about the same thing and searched a lot online. I'm getting a male and am not going to neuter. I have seen little upside to it.
I always hear about testicular cancer but that is nearly a non issue. It's about 1 or 2% of male dogs that will die of that and most of them are probably older. A dog has to die from something so make sure you check out the average age dogs get some of the things neutering helps get rid of. Yeah if you cut something off it can't get cancer there.

I thought about going with a female for a while, then I would be getting her spayed. That would mostly be for my convenience not the dogs.

For a while very early neutering was getting popular but there seems to be more evidence that you should wait until the pup is fully grown. Some of these things may not make a lot of difference in a lap dog but in an athletic hunting dog the increased chance of an ACL injury and larger growth could. By the time they are fully grown some of the behavior 'problems' neutering is suppose to correct are already issues I don't see a dog unlearning. Things like humping and marking can be stopped if the owner doesn't put up with it. I see plenty of dogs that run their owners and then they think cutting something off will make them a better owner. That's not how it works.

If you just don't want to worry about having a male bolt after a female in heat or you don't want to worry when you put your female outside in a fenced in yard then I think it may be the right thing to do. I haven't noticed a lot of difference in how dogs act before and after, maybe others have. Often they have just been starting to mature so telling why it calmed down can be hard to determine.

My $.02
Tim
 
I see plenty of dogs that run their owners and then they think cutting something off will make them a better owner.
Click to expand...




Tim,


That could be read a couple different ways,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.


In some cases, cutting something off the owner, would indeed make them a better owner!
(not sure my comments have anything at all to do with the original topic at hand. ;>) )
 
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I see plenty of dogs that run their owners and then they think cutting something off will make them a better owner.
Click to expand...




Tim,


That could be read a couple different ways,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.


In some cases, cutting something off the owner, would indeed make them a better owner!
(not sure my comments have anything at all to do with the original topic at hand. ;>) )


Yep, I agree. It was poor grammar even by my standards but it does seem to make sense on many levels this way. :)

Tim
Click to expand...
 
I am a proponent of neutering. I have had 13-14 dogs in my life so far and the last 3 males have been neutered right at 6 months of age. I never did see a loss of drive or physicality due to the neutering. They definately didn't have the desire to 'wander' as much as they did before the neutering. 2 of the 3 stopped humping and marking permanently and always squated to urinate after the operation. The last, my 100 lb. chessie, stopped humping and marking for about 4-5 years and then unexplicably started again and I have no idea why. Unlike Tim, I am highly doubtful than an owner/trainer is going to have any effect on the humping/marking desires of an un-neutered dog. A good trainer can have dogs do amazing things but stopping the natural desires of testosterone IMHO isn't one of them.

If you aren't going to breed them, cut them at 6 months.
 
Once upon a time I had three female labrador retrievers. They synced their menstral cycles. Did you ever have to fend off every male dog for a mile radius whose owner didn't have the courtesy to not let them "run"?

One night I came home from trawl sampling about 1:00AM. Decided I would take a quick shower to get the fish stink off and impress my new spouse. Apparently, I woke her while showering and she decided to let the dogs out. I heard her screaming, jumped out of the shower and ran outside to find a great dane locked with our dog. Instinctively I jumped the deck railing and grabbed two handfuls of the great dane and launched him into the wall of the garage about five feet away. When I let go of him, it suddenly occurred to me that I had no clothes on. I had so much adrenaline in my blood stream that I hit him twice more before he recovered. He decided that was enough. So did I. My last three labs have all been males.

We have a nine month old male now. My wife tells me current practice is to wait at least a year prior castration, with anytime after 4 months for initiation of the surgery. If you don't plan on breeding your dog, testicles don't add anything to their drive or stamina. This is one of the oldest "wives tales" out there.

Karen just came home. She said to remind everyone that testicular cancer is almost always fatal... "The dogs usually eat all or a portion of their scrotum prior their owner's discovering that something is wrong!"
 
Pete I don't doubt your experience but the most humping dog I know is a spayed female. All the males that I have seen that were really bad the owners usually laughed at it and did nothing about it. Yep a little humping is going to happen. It isn't really trained out of them as much as it is demanded out of them. My male years ago did it a few times and that was the end of that. I may have been a little too much of a hot headed 20 year old but it worked.

My neighbor's coon hound is the most roaming dog I have ever seen. Maybe since he is fixed he always comes back... I kind of wish he wouldn't sometimes... a lot of times.

I'm not anti-neutering at all, just make sure to check out the research and have realistic expectations.

Tim
 
btw Testicular cancer in dogs is almost always treatable and usually shows up in older dogs. Don't base it off of that. There are side effects that are nearly as bad for hunting dogs. Like I said it is fine to do it just know the reasons.

Here is one good read on early neutering click here

Tim
 
I live in NJ, my dogs don't "wander" lol. I walk my dog every morning, wife walks in the afternoon and when I get home from work we play/train. He is run, or swam atleast 2 days per week if not more so I do a good job of managing the energy. I was really more concerned about hunting drive and such.
 
I finally had to threaten to find a new vet if the old one didn't stop pestering me about chopping my dog. Kept giving me pamphlet after pamphlet and the only thing they said that was definite was it prevented testicular cancer.

I'm not going to do it. I'm with my dog every moment he's not int he house and in the field he's on a leash or in the marsh with me.
 
I had my dog neutered. I don't need him thinking of anything other than hunting. I don't want to be a dog breeder. I just want to hunt. My last dog was a lab, it didn't effect him at all. He still didn't like little girls. My chessie does just fine, next dog I will do the same. John
 
I have a German Shorthair, our breeder asked us to wait until he was at least 18 months old to have him neutered. She mentioned that he would be fully grown and past puberty. Nothing scientific, but something I have heard from a couple breeders since then.
 
btw Testicular cancer in dogs is almost always treatable and usually shows up in older dogs. Don't base it off of that. There are side effects that are nearly as bad for hunting dogs. Like I said it is fine to do it just know the reasons.

Here is one good read on early neutering click here

Tim
Click to expand...
As I stated,Tim, the current practice is to wait until after one year to castrate a dog, which is what the study you cite concludes, based on the body of evidence. As far as "European perspective" on canine development and health, you can still go to nearly any large labrador retriever kennel in England, Ireland, or Scotland and see them feeding their dogs tripe from the local butcher shop. Yes, Tim, the incidence of testicular cancer in dogs is very low, but it is still the leading cancer in "male dogs of a certain age". IF, testicular cancer is detected by the dog's owner, based on inspection or altered pet behavior, it is usually treatable. As my wife's statement alludes, it is NOT often detected early enough, based on her twenty-plus years of experience as a Veterinary Tech. With all due respect, I place greater weight on her obsvervational experience than your broad statements based on selective scrutiny of Internet "science". A wandering coon hound with no JUNk, is not a threat to any dog breeder's program, just a pest and an annoyance. You fail to grasp the true value of spay/neuter programs;to decrease unwanted puppies in animal shelters and the consequent need to euthanize them if they are not adopted out.
 
I'm on my iPad and can post more later. The days of the cookbook early/spay neuter recommendations should be coming to an end, especially with sporting dogs. The UCDavis golden paper is the start of that research. Another paper, that won't be printed until next month but is available online provides even more data that we should be waiting...and potentionally not neutering in cases that it's not a detriment to the family situation.

As a profession we have been doing a disservice to some of our athletic dogs with these early recommendations claiming to be based in science. The real science is showing otherwise.

The new study, set to hit the press next month: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.244.3.309

Joe

Or more formally
Joe Spoo DVM, CCRT
Resident ACVSMR
(a resident with more than a decade of athletic dog practice experience)
 
"As a profession we have been doing a disservice to some of our athletic dogs with these early recommendations claiming to be based in science. The real science is showing otherwise. "

It is important to emphasize that you state the net-value of early gonadectomy may be in question, not, whether gonadectomy (spay/neuter)should continue to occur.

With all due respect, Doc Spoo, these are both breed-specifc studies, and BOTH employ retrospective analyses of data. The only blocking factors employed in the analysis appear to be dog breed and the gonadectomy timing and/or occurence for both these two studies. I'll have to go dig around in my library, I think the study appeared in JAMA- a peer-reviewed human medical research science journal. Retrospective cohort analysis techniques were documented to overinflate treatment effect by a minimum of approximately 20% due to uncontrollable experimental error, as well as the inability to adequately employ blocking criteria that would standardize the data from multiple investigator sources, gathered in the absence of pre-specified assessment and exclusion criteria that would ensure standardization and comparablility of all cohorts. The authors concluded that ANY retrospective analysis should only be used to guide scientists to design prospective analysis studies with rigorous application of blocking criteria to determine the source of causality, as well as to elucidate the degree of cause and effect relationship between the independant and dependant variables being studied.

It is valid to conclude from these data that vasectomy and ovariectomy/tubal sterilization should be assessed as an alternate medical intervention to achieve sterility in caninces via a large cohort prospective medical intervention study as a potential alternative that MAY carry a lower incidence of growth plate, ligament, and hip dysplasia that MAY be associated with EARLY gonadectomy in sporting breeds. Incidence of identified neoplastic diseases should also be assessed in similar fashion, given the vast existing epidemiologic evidence that testicualr cancer remains the most prevelant neoplasm in intact male canines.
 
Thanks for posting Joe. Those results pretty much negate what I thought I knew on the subject (more common than I like to admit lately :). Guess I'll have to rethink neutering if I ever get another dog.

How you doing? Hope you aren't too busy to get out hunting once in a while.
 
Ya'll do realize your quoting science paper after science paper about an issue that 97% of the time is going to be decided by pure emotion. Most guys think their dogs are going to someday sit up and have a beer with them as long as they got nuts, and most vets think everything should be fixxed. Neither of them have any basis in anything other than disneyesque views of the world and animals.

Most dogs shouldnt be bred. In fact, a large number of dogs shouldnt have been bred themselves. If a dog is not a perfect physical speciem in every sense of the word, as well as a perfect in his behaviors and adds something to the breed, he shouldnt be bred. If his littermates werent healthy, and mentally together, he shouldnt be breed... Course this is labs, your other breeds I have no ideal as I havent ever fooled with any. If a dog isnt going to be bred, thats a lot of energy that could be used elsewhere in his body, energy he could give you, energy to heal, energy to fight disease. Cut him at a year is what we've always done. Lifes much simpler for you and the dog after that.

All that said, I hate the puppy game. Nobody ever buys a puppy with the ideal they're gonna ignore it, or its gonna be a great couch sitter... Hate the puppy biz, and do everything i can to not be part of it. travis
 
I am an advocate of not neutering unless some secondary issue or behavior would tend to recommend it. Even in those circumstances, I would strongly recommend waiting past the second birthday. I have a 13 month old male whose breeder made very clear would not be warranteed if he was neutered under two years old. I am given to understand that there are corrolaries between certain cancer rates and neutering. Good luck!
 
I have a WPG and never nuetered him. I have no dominance or humping issue. The red rocket will come out on a rare occasion if the licking gets a little too much, but not a major issue in my mind. I was concerned with body developement so decided not too have him snipped. Also thought about possibly studding him out just so I could get another dog in the future, as he came from champion blood lines. If and when I get another dog I wouldn't have him snipped. He wanders a little, but a little correction seems to get his attention.
 
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