Neutering, Yes or No?

Great topic...my wife keeps threatening to have Maxx neutered anytime I leave the house. She believes that will stop his incessant whining and also cool his jets a bit. I've tried about everything to stop the whining...it's not your typical whining by the way...It's more of an "I'm bored" type of whine. He has a ton of drive and lives to retrieve. He also drives everybody in the house nuts - speaking of nuts. I have been fending her off to have him neutered, I don't want him getting fat and lose his drive. I don't think neutering him will alter his behavior all that much. Initially I wanted to have breed him, but after dealing with the moaning / whining I'm thinking twice about that. I wouldn't want that trait staying in the gene pool. I guess I'm on the fence about that issue...so I'll keep watching this thread and see what transpires.

Steve
 
"As a profession we have been doing a disservice to some of our athletic dogs with these early recommendations claiming to be based in science. The real science is showing otherwise. "

It is important to emphasize that you state the net-value of early gonadectomy may be in question, not, whether gonadectomy (spay/neuter)should continue to occur.

With all due respect, Doc Spoo, these are both breed-specifc studies, and BOTH employ retrospective analyses of data. The only blocking factors employed in the analysis appear to be dog breed and the gonadectomy timing and/or occurence for both these two studies. I'll have to go dig around in my library, I think the study appeared in JAMA- a peer-reviewed human medical research science journal. Retrospective cohort analysis techniques were documented to overinflate treatment effect by a minimum of approximately 20% due to uncontrollable experimental error, as well as the inability to adequately employ blocking criteria that would standardize the data from multiple investigator sources, gathered in the absence of pre-specified assessment and exclusion criteria that would ensure standardization and comparablility of all cohorts. The authors concluded that ANY retrospective analysis should only be used to guide scientists to design prospective analysis studies with rigorous application of blocking criteria to determine the source of causality, as well as to elucidate the degree of cause and effect relationship between the independant and dependant variables being studied.

It is valid to conclude from these data that vasectomy and ovariectomy/tubal sterilization should be assessed as an alternate medical intervention to achieve sterility in caninces via a large cohort prospective medical intervention study as a potential alternative that MAY carry a lower incidence of growth plate, ligament, and hip dysplasia that MAY be associated with EARLY gonadectomy in sporting breeds. Incidence of identified neoplastic diseases should also be assessed in similar fashion, given the vast existing epidemiologic evidence that testicualr cancer remains the most prevelant neoplasm in intact male canines.
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RL,

The journal that the goldens study is published in is "PLOS ONE", which is a well regarded general science journal, not JAMA (or JAVMA, for that matter).

Best practice when offering an opinion on a specific paper published on the scientific literature is to have actually read the paper in question - the alternative is properly called "talking out your ass".

Tod
 
RL,

By no means am I advocating blanket recommendations, quite contrary, I'm merely pointing out that there is a body of work that needs to be evaluated with each patient as an INDIVIDUAL. The vast majority of my patients are and will continue to be altered, for the majority of the pet owning public it just makes sense. The studies that we have used in the past (i.e. mammary tumor incidence as a reason for early spay) have been shown to be poor studies and the statistics have not been replicated in countries where altering does not occur as regularly. We have very few, if any good studies showing any HEALTH benefit to early spay/neuter. Most of the reasons relate to behavior and owner situation which while legitimate reasons to spay/neuter do not justify a blanket recommendation to every veterinary client in a practice.

I get very frustrated with blanket health recommendations such as spay and neuter at 4-6 months, or every dog needs to be "fixed." I would also be frustrated if the blanket recommendation was to keep everything intact. Each patient is an individual, owned by an individual, and should be treated as such with a discussion for that patient and the owner's situation. We now have more information, while yes from three breeds (rotties, goldens and vizslas) that show a positive association with late or no spay/neuter and this needs to be taken in to account when talking to clients. If someone decides not to spay or neuter it does not make them a bad pet owner.

I did not post the study as an end-all-be-all, and rereading the post I don't see how it came across as that. From a field that has very little funding for research it is exciting when any new information carried out by world-renowned researchers comes out. I think it is ridiculous when people challenge it with "in and ideal world the study would have been..." Seriously? What world do you live in that every study is able to be conducted under ideal circumstances. Is it better that we make decisions just on gut feelings or in light of ALL the information we have. The first author on this paper, while a veterinary pathologist, is also one of the leading AIDs researchers in the world and works for a little organization called Johns Hopkins....this wasn't just some breed survey that was thrown together by amateurs breed enthusiasts. The information we have now is better than what we have five years ago, ten years ago, etc. Is it perfect? Of course not. Does it provide more information when making health decisions? Absolutely. We will never have the ability to have the perfectly designed study in this profession.

Just trying to add new information to a conversation that has been taking place since we have owned dogs. If you have better research to add to the discussion I am all ears.

Joe
 
Bob,

Just saw your address. My wife practiced for the last eight years in Coral Springs before I convinced her to move to sunny South Dakota.

Travis,

I wish the lab world agreed with you, if they did we wouldn't have so many popular studs that have gone through ACL surgeries. You are correct that >90% of the time this is an emotional decision and not one based in any facts.
 
RLLingman,

I didn't mean to sound like I'm anti neutering, I'm not. I'm just saying people should wait and learn first. While testicular cancer is common and it does kill the ages that it usually does kill and the rate that is treatable should all be taken into account. That is the only illness I can find that castration stops. Everything else is behavioral. I don't believe hunting drive is effected at all and is not an issue.

My internet science hasn't come off of forums stating anecdotal evidence but are based on hard numbers from serious researchers. I am not at all saying anything bad about your wife's experiences it is just a simple fact that every one of us sees only what we see ourselves. Overviews like this help everyone. I have to keep telling my RN niece how rare some of the things she keeps warning me about are. She only sees sick people not the healthy ones who never have a problem with these risks.

One more time I am not against neutering. Many people should do it and if I were getting a female I would be about 99% sure I'd have it done. I'm not going to have it done with my male but that is a calculated risk like everything in life. I would never do it just to help control the pet population, that is up to me. Maybe in a year or 2 I'll change my mind for some reason, I am not saying my way is the only way. I know it won't be until he is fully grown that is for sure and that is all I was trying to get across. I don't care if he does or doesn't have his 'junk', heck I'd just as soon not have them waving around. Not a male pride thing for me.

Many accidental breeding are on purpose, it's amazing how many 'accidental' lab x german shorthair litters happen in my area at times. Lots of people lie to themselves and think their dog is special and needs to be bred. Like Travis said a lot shouldn't have been born in the first place. That is why I put a lot of time into finding a litter that is being bred because 1) the parents are from well documented healthy bloodlines 2) they are very biddable 3) they have great hunting desire... in that order. Most people aren't doing that and then yes they are well served by having their dog fixed. If they can't do the background work they aren't going to take care of the dog like they should.

I pointed out the coon hound only because dogs roam because people allow them to roam. I have other neighbors who have two intact male labs. They never leave their unfenced yard. The owners do not accept it so the dogs don't do it. The only thing this proves is who the more responsible owner is.
Dogs and cats getting into my garden if they are fixed or not are a bigger pain to me then making sure I have control over my dog at all times. That doesn't mean it will be with me 100% of the time but that I see that it is in a crate, kennel, fenced in or in the care of someone else who won't let it run unsupervised. Just the way I am with dogs.

I'm sure someone has looked at me and said "Didn't he recently say he is just getting his second dog and he is talking like this?" Yep I'm just going to get my second dog. That doesn't mean I've only been around or cared for that one dog. I have taken care of others for extended times. I've helped train some, I'm a very good house trainer. I've been around dogs. Part of the reason I have waited this long to get another dog myself is that I don't take owning one lightly. I like dogs to be under control, that is how unwanted pups are avoided.

My long winded explanation saying I don't think you are wrong just that and all things should be considered.

BTW Travis, I'd rather have a whiskey drinking dog. One bottle is easier to pick up then a dozen beer cans in the yard. Central and eastern European dogs are booze hounds.

Tim
 
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What about a vasectomy? My brother, who is an MD, has a super 1-year-old male lab. He's looked into neutering him, and has decided against it for more reasons that I can recall. But he also has several female dogs (setters), some of which are not spayed, so he has decided to have his lab get a vasectomy. Unless I'm mistaken, though, he's going to have travel a fair ways to get it done (Tufts?).
 
I have always ...ALWAYS had black labs and find that they are a breed that I understand the best. Not to say other breeds aren't excellent dogs, I just know labs better. I have always gotten my labs fixed (male or female). Most of my dogs are house pets as well and females can be very messy when in their cycle and the males acn be a little harder to control. I am not basing any of this on scientific facts, just my observations over the years. My dogs have always been very well behaved and always under control and, since I never intend on breeding my dogs (there are a bazillion great black labs already out there), I would rather my dogs be fixed and less likely to wander to neighbors homes and cause trouble. Just my .02.


dc
 
Todd, I JAMA article is published in a peer-reviewed HUMAN MEDICAL research journal. IT focuses on the short comings of using retrospective analysis techniques i.e. analyzing and accumulating data that has not undergone a variety of Coding and array techniques to ensure that the 'Numbers" are unknown to the folks who are using them in the statistical analysis technique(s) employed to determine whether a study result is due to treatment effect or just random chance. Both these canine studies involve retrospective analysis of data compiled for OTHER uses.

The don't control for background genetics of the dogs. They don't control for diet.

I read the abstact posted in Joe SPoos link as well as the study done on golden retrievers. Yes, they indicate a trend, but they have significant limitations regarding how definitive the impact of gonadectomy at any age over six months in these two species...

I am a former clinical human research manager. My job was to oversee clinical trials my employers opted to engage in via contractual agreements to do medical device and drug intervention studies.

Yes, one of use is chirping out of the wrong orifice: on that point we agree...
 
Joe, my intent was to make sure that folks DIDN'T misread your statements, AND to understand that there are still limitations to the validity and scope of the findings of these two studies specific to when the surgeries occur, not whether they occur which is what the thread title addresses. After a decade long stint if fisheries research, and another 25 years in the Pharma. Industry discussing clinical trial data with physicians, I went to work as a clinical research coordinator... I have seen how quickly, and quite frankly, how willingly folks will grab onto a "chunk" of a study outcome that agrees with their preconceptions and ignore all of the other qualifying evidence contained in the same study.

I have seen junk studies trotted out of some of the leading medical research institutions, including Johns Hopkins... I am often amazed how physicians trained in the scientific method, fail to practice it routinely when conducting clinical research. A deviation report must be issued each time this occurs. Trials have been stopped at institutions where the medical staff could not comply with a study protocol on a routine basis. I am often amazed at how poorly statistical analysis models and techniques are understood by folks doing clinical research.

The thread is titled: Neutering, Yes or No? What you stated implied definitive evidence on only one aspect of the impact of gonadectomy, not whether it should occur, which is what the poster reqested a response on. Yet, you made no qualifying statement(s).

When you make a statement regarding an outcomes study,as a professional, it is incumbent on you to also provide your audience with the limitations of that study, particularly when communicating to the lay public. Yes, these studies provide treatment guidance. No, these data are not definitive. We both agree on that point.

Hip dysplasia is a multi-foci disease, genetics and diet play significant roles. Were these controlled for in these two canine populations? As I said, the conclusions I stated are likely the extent of what can be drawn from their "findings"... Are the neoplasms recorded occuring at higher occurence rates in the study at higher occurrence rates than testicular cancer in the "intact" canine population?

My post was made an effort to scribe those limits, since you did not...
 
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Todd, I JAMA article is published in a peer-reviewed HUMAN MEDICAL research journal. IT focuses on the short comings of using retrospective analysis techniques i.e. analyzing and accumulating data that has not undergone a variety of Coding and array techniques to ensure that the 'Numbers" are unknown to the folks who are using them in the statistical analysis technique(s) employed to determine whether a study result is due to treatment effect or just random chance. Both these canine studies involve retrospective analysis of data compiled for OTHER uses.

The don't control for background genetics of the dogs. They don't control for diet.

I read the abstact posted in Joe SPoos link as well as the study done on golden retrievers. Yes, they indicate a trend, but they have significant limitations regarding how definitive the impact of gonadectomy at any age over six months in these two species...

I am a former clinical human research manager. My job was to oversee clinical trials my employers opted to engage in via contractual agreements to do medical device and drug intervention studies.

Yes, one of use is chirping out of the wrong orifice: on that point we agree...
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Give me a break.
 
Apparently I am not alone in encouraging good science to be performed AND reported on in discussions on this subject...

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/...s/PedRebuttal%20.pdf


Todd, I did.

Now apply a roughly 20% reduction to the incidence rates reported in this golden retriever trial for a VERY Rough idea of what potential impacts of using retrospective analysis techniques on raw incidence of occurence data can potentially due to alter a series of outcomes.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937
 
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This discussion is exactly why for years I have refrained from internet veterinary discussions.

For decades we have heard the benefits of spay/neuter, I apologize I did not preface my post with an exhaustive literature review for this peer-reviewed site....I am shocked that the editorial board of duckboats.net allowed the post to appear.

From my iPad, on my way in to work, I posted that there was finally research being done to show that someone isn't a bad pet owner if they elect not to follow the long-standing recommendation to spay and neuter everything (which you haven't noted are recommendations not based on ANY research). I spoke in no sweeping statements or recommendations and merely provided my thoughts as a veterinarian who deals primarily with hunting dogs. I did not answer the post title because I don't feel it is a yes or no answer. The entire point of my post is it isn't clear cut, which I thought I clarified in my second post when I had access to a keyboard. Currently, while weak by your high standards, these existing studies are the best we have in veterinary literature on the subject to alter or not. We do not have the body of literature available on the human side....which I am sure you are aware of as overseer of all adequate and appropriate scientific literature.

In the future I'll defer to your years as a fisheries biologist and a paper pusher. Thank you for keeping everyone in line as I am sure you are busy with a constant stream of letters to the editors of the major scientific journals with tirades over the crappy research they are publishing.
 
Matt,

Since apparently all research and papers are suspect I guess I'll share my personal belief base on sharing my life with a handful of male dogs. Since the rest of my immediate family is female, I have an affinity for my boys, and believe that if they aren't broke don't fix them. So far I've been driven to fix one male, a springer. He was miserable when any of a couple of neighborhood dogs would go into heat. Besides taking off if given the slightest chance, he'd jump up on the dinning table in front of a picture window and howl. In frustration I once hit him hard enough to send him flying off and he simply jumped back up. At age three plus we gave up and had him cut. He was much more relaxed but otherwise unchanged. The proverbial red rocket still made it's occasional appearance and he still enjoyed humping his LLBean dog bed for years. Far as I know it was the only thing he humped. My male Labs have been great and I've seen no reason to fix them. Bogs made it to 13.5 years before dying and not from T-Cancer. Marsh is pushing 8 and has never shown any aggression or any desire to wonder. I took Marsh in for a check-up a couple of years back and got the comment, "don't see those very often".

Interesting observation by my wife Barb on the hypocrisy of animal rights activists. They supposedly believe animals are our equals, so why do they push so hard for neutering and spaying? Talk about the ultimate inequality!

Scott
 
I didn't mean to start a brawl, I honestly just wanted opinions from guys that have had working dogs for more years than I have been alive. What I've gathered is clipping should be based on the individual dog. If you can't control your dog and let it roam and breed random dogs you're an idiot and contributing to the huge problem of shelter dogs. I think that sums it up?
 
Matt, as you stated earlier....the dog is 9 years old. Do you have any issues with the way the dog behaves? If not, I think if he has had them for nine years and is not bolting, humping, howling, scratching, marking,etc.....you leave well enough alone.


dc


My mistake Matt, I forgot that you said that you were going to start looking for another dog soon. Still working on my reading comprehension.
 
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If you can't control your dog and let it roam and breed random dogs you're an idiot and contributing to the huge problem of shelter dogs.

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Yep, I believe that sums it up....
 
I think its a guy thing.
We don't think twice about spaying our female dogs but cringe at the though of cutting our male dogs.
Either way you go, its your decision.
And your responsibility to keep your dog, male or female, neutered or not, under control, and not wandering the neighborhood producing unwanted puppies.
Talk to your vet and the breeder you chose. Take all the advice here into account & then let us know how it all works out.
 
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