Payload vs. Speed
- Thread starter Carl
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Ed Askew
Well-known member
Here's the basic physics:
Force = mass x (velocity squared)
Since the force of the charge is transmitted to the load by way of moving it's mass a certain velocity, and the mass of the load will not decay due it it's interaction with the atmosphere, but the velocity will decay (and it's decay decreases the force of the mass hitting the target by the square of it's decay), then more mass is better than more velocity.
Therefor use a larger load.
Ed.
Force = mass x (velocity squared)
Since the force of the charge is transmitted to the load by way of moving it's mass a certain velocity, and the mass of the load will not decay due it it's interaction with the atmosphere, but the velocity will decay (and it's decay decreases the force of the mass hitting the target by the square of it's decay), then more mass is better than more velocity.
Therefor use a larger load.
Ed.
Bob B
Well-known member
Mark is the one who got me thinking about it a long time ago and the links I posted just confirmed it for me.
The shooter has to do the work. But a load must deliver the min number of pellets to get three hits on a bird.
Marks secret is good setups and camo hides. His ranges are in your face close.
That close the 7 pellet is as deadly, and his pictures confirm that every fall.
The rage on youtube of towering shots just means more guys trying to wing a bird up high and that is where the "Speed\mass\rest of it" comes from.
But I dont know too many guys who practice enough to actually hit those far shots over 50% of the time.
The shooter has to do the work. But a load must deliver the min number of pellets to get three hits on a bird.
Marks secret is good setups and camo hides. His ranges are in your face close.
That close the 7 pellet is as deadly, and his pictures confirm that every fall.
The rage on youtube of towering shots just means more guys trying to wing a bird up high and that is where the "Speed\mass\rest of it" comes from.
But I dont know too many guys who practice enough to actually hit those far shots over 50% of the time.
John Augustine
Well-known member
I agree with Todd about the sportsman loads. They were lethal on eiders in #2 and everything else
in #4 steel. Also agree completely with Mark about confidence of the shooter. My question is this.
I am planning to shoot steel out of an old double this season and I'm not sure how this (speed vs payload)
would affect my gun. The bores will be IC and Mod. I'm not trying to hijack this thread, just a different angle
on the same question. Is there more felt recoil with one over the other?
What do you think?? John
in #4 steel. Also agree completely with Mark about confidence of the shooter. My question is this.
I am planning to shoot steel out of an old double this season and I'm not sure how this (speed vs payload)
would affect my gun. The bores will be IC and Mod. I'm not trying to hijack this thread, just a different angle
on the same question. Is there more felt recoil with one over the other?
What do you think?? John
TimJ
Well-known member
John,
I shoot high speed light loads in an old single barrel gun choked full but I can't say how it will effect a double. I think there is a slight ring near the choke, hard to tell, but shooting steel hasn't hurt the tightness of the choke or put any new scoring in the barrel. A slight ring doesn't hurt a single barrel but might cause problems with a double.
If it were mine with IC and Mod chokes I'd shoot fast steel in it, that's just me. The worst wads now seem to protect better then the best did 20 years ago.
Worth shoots steel out of old doubles with very tight chokes, I'm not sure I would go that far but it works for him.
The recoil is probably about a wash in the two loads mentioned earlier. Usually heavier payload will give you a bigger shove and higher speed gives you a sharper jolt. At least that is how it seems to me.
Tim
I shoot high speed light loads in an old single barrel gun choked full but I can't say how it will effect a double. I think there is a slight ring near the choke, hard to tell, but shooting steel hasn't hurt the tightness of the choke or put any new scoring in the barrel. A slight ring doesn't hurt a single barrel but might cause problems with a double.
If it were mine with IC and Mod chokes I'd shoot fast steel in it, that's just me. The worst wads now seem to protect better then the best did 20 years ago.
Worth shoots steel out of old doubles with very tight chokes, I'm not sure I would go that far but it works for him.
The recoil is probably about a wash in the two loads mentioned earlier. Usually heavier payload will give you a bigger shove and higher speed gives you a sharper jolt. At least that is how it seems to me.
Tim
noweil Mike
Well-known member
I would like to pattern the shells before buying a case.
We used to reload steel, pattern the loads, try all the choke tubes on the market. I look back at this as splitting hairs. I must have had a lot more time and money than I do now. My favorite preference in shotshells now days is price.
I have been buying shells on clearance at the end of hunting season. Everything from 2 3/4" #4 to 3" T shot. At $5.00 a box on clearance I would to buy every case I could get. I still pattern some shells to see what factory choke gives a good pattern. Beyond that I just pick what shot size to take based on where we are hunting and what size ducks we are hunting.
If the birds are in range all the shotshells of appropriate shot size will do the job. When you start to push the limits, that is when you need to split hairs.
Matt Moore
Active member
I say speed kills. Everything I shoot is 1500fps+. Early duck season 7/8 oz 3s, smaller ducks in the decoys. When goose season opens, I shoot 1 1/8 oz BB as a comprimise. When only goose season is open, September, and January through march, the 12ga goes back in the cabinet, and the 10ga with 1 3/8 oz T shot comes out. I also don't have to make adjustments in lead, as all the loads are traveling at about the same speed.
This also saves confusion of what's in a shotshell. If it's 2 7/8, it's the early season 7/8 oz #3, 3 inch is 1 1/8oz BB, 10ga it's T shot, unless it's a federal case, then it's lead #4 buck for coyotes.
This also saves confusion of what's in a shotshell. If it's 2 7/8, it's the early season 7/8 oz #3, 3 inch is 1 1/8oz BB, 10ga it's T shot, unless it's a federal case, then it's lead #4 buck for coyotes.
Rutgers
Well-known member
I am not the type of person to think things like this through much. I'm not scientifically nor detail minded.
About 5 or 6 years ago, I had an opportunity to get some federal number 4's, 2 3/4 and one ounce. I picked up four cases for around $110 after rebates (total price for four cases. They have served my well, though I did mix things in from time to time from my five gallon bucked of mixed stuff with the writing worn off. For sea ducks I used 3" number 2's and experienced a fair ammount of cripples. After some coaching from a guy who I can say is the best wingshooter i know, the cripples were greatly reduced. We were huntin on Kodiak Island, and he was shooting cheap experts, the once of fours loads I talked about and killing stuff stone dead, everything from harlequins to scoters. Certainly proves the shot placement theory.
About 5 or 6 years ago, I had an opportunity to get some federal number 4's, 2 3/4 and one ounce. I picked up four cases for around $110 after rebates (total price for four cases. They have served my well, though I did mix things in from time to time from my five gallon bucked of mixed stuff with the writing worn off. For sea ducks I used 3" number 2's and experienced a fair ammount of cripples. After some coaching from a guy who I can say is the best wingshooter i know, the cripples were greatly reduced. We were huntin on Kodiak Island, and he was shooting cheap experts, the once of fours loads I talked about and killing stuff stone dead, everything from harlequins to scoters. Certainly proves the shot placement theory.
noweil Mike
Well-known member
I have a hunting buddy who bought a MEC reloader and it came with a whole bunch of steel shot reloading supplies. It had a large quantity of MEC steel shot and steel wads. The published load data for these wads was not impressive for speed. He had the materials so he loaded up the BBB's for geese and #3's for ducks. He pattern tested the loads and had to hand cut all the wads (they were not split). He hunted with those shells for a number of seasons. I saw so many geese that I called in die to those slow reloads that I was impressed. We still talk about all the geese he killed with those shells. He is a decent wing shot and the slow reloads patterned very well.
Since using all of the old steel shot components, my buddy has reloaded some really fast steel loads. I have seen him fold-up geese with some very fast #3 shot loads that he rolled himself. He has had good success with the faster loads, but he was successful with slow loads.
2 years ago I went hunting for the first time with a guy. He showed up with his Mossberg 500 and a box of Winchester 3” #2 Experts 1.25 ounce at 1300 FPS. We were hunting a flooded corn field with 100’s of birds around. That guy killed every duck and goose that violated our air space with those inexpensive 1300 FPS loads. I have never shot any Winchester Experts, but after watching that shooting display, I may need to get some. He said he paid $70.00 for a case of those 1300 FPS 3” 1.25 ounce loads.
I had 2 old boxes of Federal 3” BB’s 1 3/8 ounce manufactured in 1987. You know how Federal has that little circle with 12 numbers in it and the last two digits of the year in the center of the circle. These were some of the steel loads we used to shoot back when we first switched over from lead to steel. I killed a lot of geese with those loads and a Hastings choke tube back when I lived next to Crab Orchard National Wildlife Refuge in the late 80’s. These 2 boxes were the remains of a case of shells that were left over when I started shooting 3” 1.25 ounce Winchester Super Steel BBB’s. Near the end of goose season in 2007, I got those old slow 1987, 1 3/8 ounce, BB’s out and put the old Hasting full steel shot choke tube in the old 870 express. I knew this combination patterned well from years ago. I just knocked the heck out of the geese with those 2 boxes of old shells.
When I was reloading steel, I was using SAM 1 wads and large quantities of Steel powder to get lots of speed. I do not feel that my shooting has suffered since I quit using the faster loads. I have nothing against the slower steel shot loads if the birds are in range. Maybe when I shoot up my inventory of $5.00/box Express Steel, Nitro Mag Steel, Drylok Steel, and Classic Steel I will go back to some faster steel shot shells.
Since using all of the old steel shot components, my buddy has reloaded some really fast steel loads. I have seen him fold-up geese with some very fast #3 shot loads that he rolled himself. He has had good success with the faster loads, but he was successful with slow loads.
2 years ago I went hunting for the first time with a guy. He showed up with his Mossberg 500 and a box of Winchester 3” #2 Experts 1.25 ounce at 1300 FPS. We were hunting a flooded corn field with 100’s of birds around. That guy killed every duck and goose that violated our air space with those inexpensive 1300 FPS loads. I have never shot any Winchester Experts, but after watching that shooting display, I may need to get some. He said he paid $70.00 for a case of those 1300 FPS 3” 1.25 ounce loads.
I had 2 old boxes of Federal 3” BB’s 1 3/8 ounce manufactured in 1987. You know how Federal has that little circle with 12 numbers in it and the last two digits of the year in the center of the circle. These were some of the steel loads we used to shoot back when we first switched over from lead to steel. I killed a lot of geese with those loads and a Hastings choke tube back when I lived next to Crab Orchard National Wildlife Refuge in the late 80’s. These 2 boxes were the remains of a case of shells that were left over when I started shooting 3” 1.25 ounce Winchester Super Steel BBB’s. Near the end of goose season in 2007, I got those old slow 1987, 1 3/8 ounce, BB’s out and put the old Hasting full steel shot choke tube in the old 870 express. I knew this combination patterned well from years ago. I just knocked the heck out of the geese with those 2 boxes of old shells.
When I was reloading steel, I was using SAM 1 wads and large quantities of Steel powder to get lots of speed. I do not feel that my shooting has suffered since I quit using the faster loads. I have nothing against the slower steel shot loads if the birds are in range. Maybe when I shoot up my inventory of $5.00/box Express Steel, Nitro Mag Steel, Drylok Steel, and Classic Steel I will go back to some faster steel shot shells.
Bryan T. Girolami
Active member
That would be myself. There are very few recipies out there to reload steel at this high of a volicity. My goose load I actually developed the recipie and sent it in and had it piso tested to make sure I wasn't going over pressure or developing pressure spikes. The 2 3/4 load is from a manual, it's actually 1675 FPS but close enough. I typically load BB for the goose loads and everything from 7's - 2's for ducks in the 2 3/4 load. If any of you got Wildfowl the last issue I believe, there is some very interesting stuff in it on chokes and shot stringing. The article definetly confirmed for me why I don't use anything tighter than a Light Modified. Most of the time I keep an improved or skeet choke in my gun.
Matt Moore
Active member
Maybe the reason I'm liking the fast loads better is my reflexes especially fast, and the loads are hitting where I'm looking. I do know I do better with them, the birds are hit harder, but this could still be because I'm hitting the bird with the big part of the pattern, where the slower loads maybe the big part is behind the bird. All I can say for sure is I do better with them, especially on geese. My buddy thinks my 10 gauge is death on geese, but maybe it's that I'm shooting a faster load than he is.
harry whitley
Well-known member
Carl,
I have experimented with just about every 12 guage steel load you can name. I have settled in with the 1 1/4 oz load of steel 2's at 1400 fps made by Federal. I occasionally use some of the Hevi shot type stuff in 3's and 5's and really like it. Just can't afford to use it all the time so I am forced to use steel. I think the 1 1/4 at 1400 is a good mix of speed and pattern density. I have used the 1550 fps stuff before but have found patterns to be a bit sketchy.
Mind you I like to use a Skeet 1 choke most of the time unless the birds are real decoy shy and then I switch to a Skeet 2 choke. I think an even pattern without a lot of holes in it is deadlier than a super fast load. Yes I know "speed kills" but not at the expense of pattern density in my humble opinion and experience.
Hope you have a great season with whatever load (s) you decide on,
Harry
I have experimented with just about every 12 guage steel load you can name. I have settled in with the 1 1/4 oz load of steel 2's at 1400 fps made by Federal. I occasionally use some of the Hevi shot type stuff in 3's and 5's and really like it. Just can't afford to use it all the time so I am forced to use steel. I think the 1 1/4 at 1400 is a good mix of speed and pattern density. I have used the 1550 fps stuff before but have found patterns to be a bit sketchy.
Mind you I like to use a Skeet 1 choke most of the time unless the birds are real decoy shy and then I switch to a Skeet 2 choke. I think an even pattern without a lot of holes in it is deadlier than a super fast load. Yes I know "speed kills" but not at the expense of pattern density in my humble opinion and experience.
Hope you have a great season with whatever load (s) you decide on,
Harry