Question on Mottled Duck

I wish was still in common useage....

Jay....the easiest way to tell a Mottled from everything else is the black line on the bsase of the bill agains the face.....look at John's pictures and once you know to look at it thats the first place you'll look.....knowledgeable Florida duck hunters often refer to it as "tobacco lip"....

Steve
 
Speaking of woodies: Twice over the past 10 days I have seen them while guiding on my favorite stream. The first time the water was at 32.4 F and the air temp was 19F and the river was the only open water around with the exception of the larger rivers that were filled with flow ice. I saw a pair of mallards and a pair of hoodies which is normal. The woodies were hiding behind a stump off the main flow and walked into the woods full of oaks when I came by. Two drakes a hen.

Two days ago I saw another drake on the same river a couple miles upstream. I have seen woodies in January on ditches in Indiana and of course if we get a big thaw and warm-up but I've never seen them following arctic conditions and cold temps like we've had. We see them later every year in N. Indiana. I've taken them the last weekend of the season the past two years.

Incidentally I fished yesterday and the water was at 31.4F. A friend said his gauge read 30.8F. And yes we still hooked chrome steelhead.
 
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These days the "gap" in the range between the Louisiana/Texas population and the Florida population has closed....as Carl says there is a resident population in Alabama where in the 70's they were unheard of...and in Florida they are now common nester throughout the penninsula and into Southerrn Ga.....

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Steve,

Based on the data we have, I do not think your statement on our population is accurate. There have consistently been records of mottled ducks on the Mobile/Tensaw River Delta since such data has been collected. Baldwin County Alabama has traditioally been the accepted eastern limit of the upper Gulf Coast population, with few historical records from the Perdido River area or other areas to the east until you get to "Florida Mallard" range.
 
Several things. NO mottled duck banded in Florida has been recovered on the Gulf Coast, and no mottled banded on the Gulf Coast has been receover in Florida. Genetic integrataion by mallards is a problem for ALL mottled ducks. I've seen pursuit flight with 3 mottled drakes and a drake mallard in May here in Louisiana. Mottled are different from Mexican duxks, although the FWS doesn't recognize it (they declared all US Mexican ducks as hybrids to avoid endangered law suits). Most band recoveries are within 100 miles of the banding, meaning they don't move far. Most (around 70%) of the harvest occurs during the first week of the season, before they know where blinds are. Most mortality occurs during the molt (think of alligators and a bird that can't fly).

Clint
 
I wish was still in common useage....

Jay....the easiest way to tell a Mottled from everything else is the black line on the bsase of the bill agains the face.....look at John's pictures and once you know to look at it thats the first place you'll look.....knowledgeable Florida duck hunters often refer to it as "tobacco lip"....

Steve
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Thanks Steve...I was actually going to look it up last night but that meant I had to go into the uninsulated backroom to retrieve a book or two and face possible death from frost bitten feet.

That picture of Ron holding the drake which I presume is a molting adult would easily pass for a black at a glance from 99.9999% of hunters north of the Mason Dixon line...prolly north of US 10(yes I did have to look it up).
 
As Steve figured out, I wasn't asking the question as a purely hypothetical. I am still going through my ordeal with Wisconsin on my violation and I know what I have shot is not a pure hen mallard. When I got it into the boat I was also somewhat confused as to it being a black X mallard as a couple of things weren't right one being the size and the second being the coloring. The body was dark like a black but the head was very small compared to either black or mallard and it, and the neck, were very much lighter than the body of the duck. I can't believe a pure mottled made it's way to MN but could it be possible a mallard X mottled or black X mottled could have?

anyone have any clear shots of the black line on the bill that Steve refers to in his post. Is "John" actually Hitch?

Mark W
 
Mark-

Here's a picture of a drake mottled that I shot. If you look at the back of the bill, you'll see it's black where the lower and upper come together. Looks like he's been spittin tobaccy juice...

IMG_28432.jpg


Dani
 
but I really don't think you're going to get anywhere without pictures, or the duck, in your hand....

Blacker than, lighter than, very small compared to, very much lighter, etc.etc. just aren't enough for anyone to comment, either way, as to the validity of your "it wasn't a hen mallard" statement......pictures might help but if I was going to court I'd be wanting that duck in my hands and a Duck Bio standing next to my lawyer....to my knowledge you have none of the three and at this point are going on "gut feeling".....myy guess is the Judge's "gut" will say "go with the GW's gut" in a case like that......

I can answer the question of "is "John" actually "Hitch".....superficially YES they do look, and sound, a lot alike....but if you look close you'll note that "John's" head is just a little bit smaller than "Hitchs'" head....and "Hitchs'" hair, what there is of it, is, "quiet a bit lighter". In comparison "John" isn't "quite as big" as "Hitch" and the overall "coloration" is just a "little" different.....so based on these first hand observation, but without a photo or their lifeless bodies in front of me I'm going to say that they are not the same person but they could easily be "hybrids" of each other......(apologies up front for the humor at your expense here but I couldn't resist)....

Steve
 
I can answer the question of "is "John" actually "Hitch".....superficially YES they do look, and sound, a lot alike....but if you look close you'll note that "John's" head is just a little bit smaller than "Hitchs'" head....and "Hitchs'" hair, what there is of it, is, "quiet a bit lighter". In comparison "John" isn't "quite as big" as "Hitch" and the overall "coloration" is just a "little" different.....so based on these first hand observation, but without a photo or their lifeless bodies in front of me I'm going to say that they are not the same person but they could easily be "hybrids" of each other......(apologies up front for the humor at your expense here but I couldn't resist)....

Steve
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But is a 'Hitch' a hen or a drake 'John'? Shouldn't be nearly as hard to ID that as it can be on the west coast.
 
View attachment Pentax 88 147e.jpgI have been following this thread with some interest, trying to distinguish the difference between a female mallard and a Florida mallard. Bill color, Black mark where the bill meets the head. This picture was taken in LaCross Wis at Ricks boat house in late august at the DHBP gathering. Notice the duck at the left. Could that be a Florida duck. Black mark where the bill meets the head. The ducks in the pictures I took hView attachment Pentax 88 155e.JPGave a lot of hybrids mostly between blacks and mallards, but could this duck also have Florida duck genes?

View attachment Pentax 88 155e.JPG
View attachment Pentax 88 147e.jpg
 
I have asked for color photos of the ducks in question and only have been given black and white photos which show nothing. I have gathered all the pic's of mallard crosses that I can find on the web and have pic's of straight mottled and straight black duck photos as well as many others. I also have many studies indicating the mating habits of mallards and what whores they are. I have a biological study on the 2nd and 3 generation of mixed brred ducks and characteristics of what these ducks look like. I also have the GW statement that he wasn't sure what the duck was and was bringing it in for an expert identification. They will be required to bring the ducks to court or the case goes bye bye. Can you imagine bringing in a black and white picture of a gun that caused a murder to be used as evidence? I don't think it would fly in a court of law. No duckies, no case. If the ducks do appear, I can point out the non mallard characteristics there and then as well as I did at the landing when I encountered the GW.

I know it is not a hen mallard of this I am certain. Problem is, I don't know exactly what it really is. It looks like a mallard X black with the excpetions oted in my post above and previoulsy. I know this doesn't sound good but it is what it is. I can't afford an attorney as the $2000 it would cost is 10X what my fine will be should I lose. Even after spending the $2000 there is no guarantee that I will even win the case. I am also not looking for a loophole, I'm just presenting my case as to how the GW is mistaken in his identification (in his own statement, he doesn't know what a mallard X black duck looks like) of the duck and why I think it is not a hen mallard. If the judge disagrees with my arguement and case, I lose and it is what it is.

I understand that many on this site would like me to hire a lawyer and get a whole bunch of experts together to fight this. With my current job situation, it would be a very selfish act to spend the kind of bucks it would take to clear my name. This is not an offense where I can lose my hunting priviledges, hunting gear, serve jailtime, etc.... The worst is a fine and a record. I don't like the record part as I don't need this to be found should any future employee be conducting background checks but the fine is at most $250 or so. I can live with that.

I do appreciate the support on this site. We'll all know the outcome on 1/21/09. No hurt feelings at all by the way. Sarcasm and humor have made me answer questions that should be helpful when it is my time in front of the judge. How about a little wager? I bet I'll get off, you think I need an attorney and a biologist to win. What should we bet? Nekid stump dances, pictures on this site wearing funny hats? Whatcha think?

Mark W
 
I'm just saying that your "odds" would be better if you had those other things.....

I gotta think the Judge won't be a hunter and they damn sure aren't going to know, or care, about duck species, or the effects of hybridization.....what they care about is what can be proved....which to me means that you are going to say...."wasn't a hen mallard but I can't prove it", and then the Judge will look at the GW and he'll say..."hen Mallard--or so close that it was indistinquishable from same" and then the Judge ahs to decide.....

Crap shoot from there and I wish you luck on the outcome......

Steve
 
Mottled Duck phots posted.....its very distinct and in exactly the same place, is exactly the same shape and size, everytime....I'll admit I haven't seen alot of 3rd or 4th generation back crosses so I'm not sure how long that i.d. mark would last but if it isn't there then the bird is so far removed from a Mottled Duck that trying to decipher when there was one in the woodpile isn't worth messing with....

I have seen first and second generation hybrids and can tell you that its there in every case.....

For what its worth...

Steve
 
I'm just saying that your "odds" would be better if you had those other things.....

I gotta think the Judge won't be a hunter and they damn sure aren't going to know, or care, about duck species, or the effects of hybridization.....what they care about is what can be proved....which to me means that you are going to say...."wasn't a hen mallard but I can't prove it", and then the Judge will look at the GW and he'll say..."hen Mallard--or so close that it was indistinquishable from same" and then the Judge ahs to decide.....

Crap shoot from there and I wish you luck on the outcome......

Steve
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I can't understand why he refuses to post a picture and keeps saying it doesn't show anything. I would be real surprised if there wouldn't be helpful information generated from the picture.

T
 
Hi Tod -

It is a black and white second generation photocopy of a colored picture. You can barely tell it is a duck much less a mallard or mallard cross. I figure by the time I scan it into the computer, size it properly to meet the upload image maximum size, and then post it, you wouldn't be able to see anything. Has nothig to do with "refusing" to post pictures.

I have asked for color photos as discovery but have been given nothing. This too helps as when I go in front of the judge and show the notorized requests and nothing from the DA's office, this too won't look good for them. How can I properly prepare my defens if the DA is providing me all the evidence against me as is required by law.

I will get the color photo's or I'll take my own next week (if they allow it) and then post to the site.

Mark W
 
Burden of proof is on the state. They have to prove that it is a hen mallard if that is what the charge is. You just have to create a reasonable doubt.
 
Hi Tod -

It is a black and white second generation photocopy of a colored picture. You can barely tell it is a duck much less a mallard or mallard cross. I figure by the time I scan it into the computer, size it properly to meet the upload image maximum size, and then post it, you wouldn't be able to see anything. Has nothig to do with "refusing" to post pictures.

I have asked for color photos as discovery but have been given nothing. This too helps as when I go in front of the judge and show the notorized requests and nothing from the DA's office, this too won't look good for them. How can I properly prepare my defens if the DA is providing me all the evidence against me as is required by law.

I will get the color photo's or I'll take my own next week (if they allow it) and then post to the site.

Mark W
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Sorry Mark, it must be a pretty bad quality picture.

T
 
Yeah, there are probably 10 pic's or so and on most it is hard to tell which duck is the for sure hen mallard and which duck is the questionable (by me that is) duck. I do want to post pic's and will try hard to get them next week. Who know's, I could be the one full of it and if so, everyone will have a good laugh on me. I'm old but not that old and my eye's still work. I would be ashamed if it was a 2nd hen mallard.

Mark W
 
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