River running in small boats....

[tod osier]

I'm in the early stages of thinking about a new boat. The local rivers in wyoming are shallow, but not particularly swift and I'd like something to get upriver a couple miles. There are places that an outboard would be ok for stretches, but you would need to walk or drag through shallows. Because land owners own the bottom, you can't walk or pole upriver.

As a first shot, I'm thinking small jon and small Longtail. This would not be a primary boat and I'd want small and light over comfort. Summer with just fishing gear would be wife and dog. Hunting would be just me and dog. Runs would be short, not miles and miles. River bottom is mostly small rock and sand, but also some big stuff. Thoughts, recommendations? I've never run anything other than an outboard, so I'm new to this.

 

[Anthony Babich]

Hey Tod,

I've got my share of sneakboats I use up here on the Marshlands of The Great South Bay, NY.
My ideal runner boat is called a 4-Rivers Migrator built by 4-Rivers. I purchased it back in 2021 and did quite a few custom modifications to it such as a spray dodger, reinforced floor, sea-dek & transom plates. I run a 5hp on it and she gets me in the hard to reach area's I can normally access with larger craft. It can be run with a long tail but this is ideally a solo rig

 

[greg setter]

are you looking into a jet boat/motor? it's mostly a western thing, might be worth looking in to.

 

[tod osier]

are you looking into a jet boat/motor? it's mostly a western thing, might be worth looking in to.

Good question. I've driven a couple jets and have been around them some. I know that you loose a lot of power using a jet compared to a prop, so to get performance you need a larger motor and then a larger boat to get the draft you want and then a thicker boat to handle the potential impacts and then a bigger motor to move the larger and thicker hull. I don't want a 14-16 foot boat with a 40 on it.

I'm more thinking of a low power solution in light package that I can handle at some pretty sketchy ramps. Runs don't have to be far, but they do need to be motorized and able to run shallow. I would never hunt out of the boat and would always ditch it.

 

[Huntindave McCann]

Tod,

Years ago I had a jet on a 1448 jon boat. 18hp output on a 25hp Evinrude powerhead. It worked very well as long as you did not exceed the load beyond the ability of the boat to get on plane. Fishing gear and one 185lb. person it would fly. Fishing gear and two 185-200lb.people was ok too, just took a bit more to get on plane.

Outfitted with an Avery quickset blind, 4 dozen decoys, guns and two hunters was about max load. Often would need shallow water to get up on plane. Sometimes unable to stay on plane. I loved my jet for running the rivers especially if encountering rocky sections. Even a longtail prop does do well bouncing off rocks.

Another very viable option is a jon boat with tunnel hull. Had one of those too. 25hp on a 15 foot hull. Raises the prop up 5 inches and does not have the loss of power associated with the jet. Still runs in almost as skinny water as the jet.

 

[Jeff Reardon]

Lots of river running in Maine. The traditional powered craft for this is a square stern canoe. There are many makers of these, running from mom-and-pop businesses making wood canvas boats one at a time to major manufacturers. In recent years Scott square sterns have pretty well taken over the local market. Several models of various lengths.

Another boat that Scott calls their "Duckboat" is also popular with a lot of my fishing friends.

Both the square sterns and the duckboats are shallow draft, very stable (like a big guy can put a foot on the gunwale while casting stable), and run pretty well with 8-20 hp motors.

Another traditional craft for this purpose, which a Montana friend of mine swears by for fishing and hunting rivers around Livingston, is a Grumman Sport Boat. It's a little more boat like than a traditional square stern. VERY seaworthy--a safe boat on big Maine lakes in a blow.

I also know some fishing guides who put motors on low draft john boats--anything from small boats you can toss in a pickup to 20-22' boats.

As for power, most of them seem to use traditional outboards. (Ask an old time Allagash river rat if he needs a jet drive to get upriver to Allagash Falls and he'd probably laugh. His grandparents were running canoes up there 50 years before jet drives wee invented.)

A few use jet drives--especially on river sections with extensive shallow riffles. You will need to size up the motor--but all these boats except the larger john boats run fine on smaller outboards. You'd be stepping up 5-10 hp; say from a 9.9 to a 15 or 20 hp.

I remember one guy who had a big john boat with a big long tail motor. He loved it, and he bombed all over the shallowest parts of the Kennebec with no concern at all, but I haven't seen a lot of other users adopt them. Maine is pretty tradition bound--maybe we are not the best place to look for adopting new-fangled stuff.

 

[tod osier]

Tod,

Years ago I had a jet on a 1448 jon boat. 18hp output on a 25hp Evinrude powerhead. It worked very well as long as you did not exceed the load beyond the ability of the boat to get on plane. Fishing gear and one 185lb. person it would fly. Fishing gear and two 185-200lb.people was ok too, just took a bit more to get on plane.

Outfitted with an Avery quickset blind, 4 dozen decoys, guns and two hunters was about max load. Often would need shallow water to get up on plane. Sometimes unable to stay on plane. I loved my jet for running the rivers especially if encountering rocky sections. Even a longtail prop does do well bouncing off rocks.

Another very viable option is a jon boat with tunnel hull. Had one of those too. 25hp on a 15 foot hull. Raises the prop up 5 inches and does not have the loss of power associated with the jet. Still runs in almost as skinny water as the jet.

Thanks Dave, that getting on plane part is one place where I'm getting stuck. I don't know if I can run on plane on those rivers, I would rather not need to and the runs wouldn't need to be too long, there are lots of access points. I'm also real familiar with a 1448 jon and 25 hp outboards and they are too much for me on an unimproved launch.

I think I could get by with a small jon and a sub 5 hp outboard and walk it through the shallows if the land ownership of the bottom wasn't an issue.

 

[tod osier]

Lots of river running in Maine. The traditional powered craft for this is a square stern canoe. There are many makers of these, running from mom-and-pop businesses making wood canvas boats one at a time to major manufacturers. In recent years Scott square sterns have pretty well taken over the local market. Several models of various lengths.

Another boat that Scott calls their "Duckboat" is also popular with a lot of my fishing friends.

Both the square sterns and the duckboats are shallow draft, very stable (like a big guy can put a foot on the gunwale while casting stable), and run pretty well with 8-20 hp motors.

Another traditional craft for this purpose, which a Montana friend of mine swears by for fishing and hunting rivers around Livingston, is a Grumman Sport Boat. It's a little more boat like than a traditional square stern. VERY seaworthy--a safe boat on big Maine lakes in a blow.

I also know some fishing guides who put motors on low draft john boats--anything from small boats you can toss in a pickup to 20-22' boats.

As for power, most of them seem to use traditional outboards. (Ask an old time Allagash river rat if he needs a jet drive to get upriver to Allagash Falls and he'd probably laugh. His grandparents were running canoes up there 50 years before jet drives wee invented.)

A few use jet drives--especially on river sections with extensive shallow riffles. You will need to size up the motor--but all these boats except the larger john boats run fine on smaller outboards. You'd be stepping up 5-10 hp; say from a 9.9 to a 15 or 20 hp.

I remember one guy who had a big john boat with a big long tail motor. He loved it, and he bombed all over the shallowest parts of the Kennebec with no concern at all, but I haven't seen a lot of other users adopt them. Maine is pretty tradition bound--maybe we are not the best place to look for adopting new-fangled stuff.

Good info. In Maine aren't they often poling the large canoes as well? When I was following the Alaska scene there were some guys using what they called freighter canoes and outboards or longtails to run rivers to get moose hunting. Something definitely to think about. I haven't seen anything like that in the area, so this is new grounds potentially. I'm not opposed to a canoe if that is the best option. That is the speed I'm interested in, rather than a jet on plane.

Lot of people (A LOT OF PEOPLE) float with drift boats (we did it several times this summer in out raft), so you need a shuttle, which isn't a big deal locally and Jen can get me, but there is a good section an hour plus away that I'd like to be able to do on my own.

 

[Jeff Reardon]

Yep. those old Allagash guides always have a pole or two for getting through the spots they can't run with motors. But poling up or down rapids is a skill that takes a long time to learn. I've been messing around with canoe poling for 20 years, and I'm still not very good at it.


If you are looking for small, easy-to-launch, and low hp, it would be hard to beat a Grumman Sportboat. There is a Grumman SB facebook page you might want to follow to see how people rig and use them.

It won't run whitewater like a drift boat will, but for rivers that are mostly riffles and runs with a little Class 1, it's great. Been looking for one local for a long time.

Must seem to run them on 6, 8 or 9.9 hp outboards.

 

[tod osier]

Yep. those old Allagash guides always have a pole or two for getting through the spots they can't run with motors. But poling up or down rapids is a skill that takes a long time to learn. I've been messing around with canoe poling for 20 years, and I'm still not very good at it.


If you are looking for small, easy-to-launch, and low hp, it would be hard to beat a Grumman Sportboat. There is a Grumman SB facebook page you might want to follow to see how people rig and use them.

It won't run whitewater like a drift boat will, but for rivers that are mostly riffles and runs with a little Class 1, it's great. Been looking for one local for a long time.

Must seem to run them on 6, 8 or 9.9 hp outboards.

Great, the river is riffles, no rapids at all. Shallow gravely riffles that could easily be walked through if legal and then long pools. I will look at the Sportboat, that sounds ideal and would be better to deal with than a small jon.

 

[Mark W]

You probably already know this but if you don't get up on plane, you will be limited to the hull speed of the boat you have. Typically less than 7mph if I recall. There is a calculation on the web somewhere I am sure.

I use my old Hoefgen Duck Boat and a homebuilt longtail motor on mine to get back upstream. Current ranges from slow to quite fast. I can easliy get upstream, sometimes at a slower pace. If I recall, one of mine is the smaller Honday 4 strokes and the other motor is a 50cc weed eater. Issue would be props it they hit rocks but that is the case with any prop based motors.

Mark

 

[tod osier]

You probably already know this but if you don't get up on plane, you will be limited to the hull speed of the boat you have. Typically less than 7mph if I recall. There is a calculation on the web somewhere I am sure.

I use my old Hoefgen Duck Boat and a homebuilt longtail motor on mine to get back upstream. Current ranges from slow to quite fast. I can easliy get upstream, sometimes at a slower pace. If I recall, one of mine is the smaller Honday 4 strokes and the other motor is a 50cc weed eater. Issue would be props it they hit rocks but that is the case with any prop based motors.

Mark

Good to hear you chime in, thanks. This line of thinking is new for me. I'll be out there all next fall and try chasing ducks on the river with some of the small boats I have, I'll have a lot better feel for it after that.

 

[Dave Evenson]

I don't know your rivers, but can you go low tech- use a small motor where you can, and row through the shallows? If your oar accidentally touches bottom will the landowner fight you over it?

 

[roy brewington]

For something that can be man handled a bit if needed that Gruman Sport boat is probably your best bet with a raised transom to get about a 6 or 8 hp 2 stroke as high as possible and still pump water. Those hulls aren't made for speed but will safely carry you & your wife fishing or you and dog/decoys hunting. Small outboard and a hull that weighs about 115 to 125 lbs. Aluminum hull to take bottom abuse your going to encounter. Can't say I've ever heard of one not being allowed to pole a boat across a shallow area of water. Western thing I presume. I had heard of bottom being owned but just assumed you couldn't walk on it.

 

[Todd Duncan Tennyson]

one of these sup boards with a small engine... Couldn't take tons of gear, but you could get around good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ofdgFeCxR4&t=7s

 

[tod osier]

For something that can be man handled a bit if needed that Gruman Sport boat is probably your best bet with a raised transom to get about a 6 or 8 hp 2 stroke as high as possible and still pump water. Those hulls aren't made for speed but will safely carry you & your wife fishing or you and dog/decoys hunting. Small outboard and a hull that weighs about 115 to 125 lbs. Aluminum hull to take bottom abuse your going to encounter. Can't say I've ever heard of one not being allowed to pole a boat across a shallow area of water. Western thing I presume. I had heard of bottom being owned but just assumed you couldn't walk on it.

Thanks for confirming that info on the sportboat - I've seen several looking on Facebook today...

Maybe I'm making more of the push poling up river than there is (wouldn't be the first time), I know that walking the riverbed is not OK. Either way, I'm thinking paddling OR poling upriver is probably more than I want even though it is probably do-able in most places. What I need to do is suffer several failures and frustrations trying to make what I have work to understand what I need and then throw money at it. I know I don't want something big or elaborate, I have enough of that already.

 

[Vince Pagliaroli]

That you cannot walk or pole is a real problem that is very difficult to deal with. I hope that you can find a solution that meets your needs. I spent many years hunting a river that is much the same as you have to deal with (no laws restricted me). Sooner or later ya gotta get out and grunt the vessel. I used my marsh boat, paddled and poled to go up river a mile or more. Trial and error as you already wrote will get you to fine tune your situation. The less is more approach works well and you will enjoy the hunts very much. It becomes a real adventure each time and frustration is tempered best with patience. It took me awhile to get to that stage. Once ya reach that stage anything is possible. A vessel that can take lots of bottom abrasion is a must.


Best regards
Vince

 

[tod osier]

That you cannot walk or pole is a real problem that is very difficult to deal with. I hope that you can find a solution that meets your needs. I spent many years hunting a river that is much the same as you have to deal with (no laws restricted me). Sooner or later ya gotta get out and grunt the vessel. I used my marsh boat, paddled and poled to go up river a mile or more. Trial and error as you already wrote will get you to fine tune your situation. The less is more approach works well and you will enjoy the hunts very much. It becomes a real adventure each time and frustration is tempered best with patience. It took me awhile to get to that stage. Once ya reach that stage anything is possible. A vessel that can take lots of bottom abrasion is a must.


Best regards
Vince

Yep and it obviously matters the time of year. It routinely gets down to 2-300 cubic feet per second in the fall/winter in its upper reaches, but I've only ever messed around with it down to 5-700 and up to 3000 cubic feet per second, so what I'm imagining could be WAY off. Next fall I'll be able to explore that low water level range thoroughly. Lower down on the river after it meets up with a larger tributary, I think it will be very motorable with a prop if you know where the hazards are and launch accordingly.

As a fall back there is always floating down with the raft and getting picked up by the wife. Water is always high enough to allow that (until it ices up, anyway).

 

[tod osier]

one of these sup boards with a small engine... Couldn't take tons of gear, but you could get around good.

https://www.youtube.com/...2ofdgFeCxR4&t=7s

That is funny that you mention that. There are areas where the public is accessible with just a pop from one side to the other. I was thinking a SUP would work for that AND they don't need an aquatic invasive species sticker if they don't have a bilge.

 

[roy brewington]

Occasionally you'll find a good deal on a Sport Boat. Sometimes not as there is a following for them. Myself I much prefer my 15' Ghenooe classic for extremely shallow water use but that bottom type you've mentioned would badly damage the fiberglass in short order. The sport boat is a true canoe hull but wider than normal so speed isn,t what its best at. There are I've learned some variation in load ratings on 15'. Sports boats depending on years produced.