Shop remodel - support beam loading question...

tod osier

Well-known member
I'm remodeling the 2 car garage into a workshop and the problem is that there are two support posts in the middle of the room (in the way) and I'd like to get it down to only 1.

The garage has a 22x22' family room over it with floor joists spanning 11' from each side to the beam, which is a tripled 2x8 with 2 posts spaced equidistant along its length. Anyone know how much meat I'd need to add to the beam to get rid of one of the posts and put a single post in the center?

T
 
Tod, I don't have pics but here is what I did in my basement; I plated both sides of my main beam (3-2" X 12s") with 3/8" steel plates. I basically sandwiched my beam. The overall span was 12' 6". I was able to remove a collumn and move one several feet. The engineer that I spoke with told me that I could span 14' with this set-up. I used 1/2" bolts staggered in a W pattern and spaced every 9". Two of my neighbors have since done the same thing after seeing what I did. It's cheaper and easier than replacing with an I-beam. If you do not completely understand I can draw some pctures for you. I hope this helps...............Kevin
 
I assume the roof above the family room carries all the weight to the sidewalls. If thats the case, then the beam carries the middle 1/2 of the load. In this case 11 feet. Multiply that by 50 pounds per foot (40# live, 10# dead), give you 550# per foot design load. Most lumber yards have the software to give you several options for beams for this. You can probably get one that would flush out with existing framing, using a glulam, microlam, or other manufactured beam, without losing headroom.
The thing you have to keep in mind is where this load is going. You've got 6050# at each end of the beam, now that the posts are gone. You'll need to build a post with studs under the beam if it's not already there. Most soils are good for 1500 psf, so you'd need a little over 4 square feet of foundation to resist this load. If your house footing is the normal 12'' wide, you'd need a 2' high foundation wall to spread the load over the 4' of footing, plus the load it's already carrying now. If the rafters or trusses aren't bearing on this wall, the existing load isn't much, but would need additional loads added if this wall line is taking on roof load.
If this overloads the footing, you can pour a bigger spot footing under the existing one (usually a hell of alot of hard work), or frame another beam into the wall below the new beam, to spread the load over a bigger part of the wall, with posts or extra studs to carry the load to the foundation. It's sometimes easier to put this beam in the floor framing, and spread the load over the top of the stemwall, than through the framed wall below the beam. Your 1st floor joists are probably running the same direction as the 2nd floor joists above, so it could be as easy as sandwiching a few more 2x onto the existing rim joist.
Go over this with your local building code enforcement agency. They'll make sure there's not any unthought of loads, or other structural conditions that would effect this. They'll charge you for a permit if you decide to do it, and you'd have to get it inspected, but you won't run amuck with your house insurance company if it's work done with a permit.
It sounds like what you're wanting to do is plausable to do though.
 
Rereading your post. I see your in a garage, and wanted to cut down to one post. In that case, you'd have 1/2 your total beam load on that 1 post, 6050#. You'd need a 2ftx2ft footing to pick that up, so you'd probably have to cut a hole in the slab. If you remove all the posts, you'd have the 6050# at each end. I assume one end of that beam lands between your garage doors. That end could be problematic, depending on how your garage was built.
 
You might be able to eliminate all supports with the right engineered beam (but might loose headroom). Isn't there a lumber yard around you who could advise on this?

Another option is a steel beam.
 
Tod, another thing to consider; When remodeling my parents house we removed a wall on the bottom floor. We replaced it with an I-beam at 26' in length. At each wall (the ends of the i-beam) we raised a 6" C-channel. These were welded to the beam at the top and to a plate on the floor. Since the walls were exterior and over the footing there was no need to pour new footings under them.............Kevin
 
Rereading your post. I see your in a garage, and wanted to cut down to one post. In that case, you'd have 1/2 your total beam load on that 1 post, 6050#. You'd need a 2ftx2ft footing to pick that up, so you'd probably have to cut a hole in the slab. If you remove all the posts, you'd have the 6050# at each end. I assume one end of that beam lands between your garage doors. That end could be problematic, depending on how your garage was built.


Oh damn, that is why I ask this sort of question. I was thinking that the post would just sit on the slab, but if it needs a footing, then it isn't worth it to do. I was thinking scab some wood to the outside, and add a post in the center and remove the other two, if that isn't the case, then it is more work than I need.

Matt, does that mean there is no footer under the two posts there, but the amount of weight on the two is low enough so that it can just be on the slab?

Very helpful, thanks.

T
 
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Not sure how helpful your local building inspection department is or whether you were even intending to get a building permit for it (around here it would probably be a misdemeanor not to for a structural change like this), but they may be able to tell you what you would need to do to meet your local building code. Or, they may tell you that you need an engineer's certification or the like which may not help you much. Anyway, just a thought.
 


The best advice you can get would be from a local contractor or carpenter who could actually see the garage and then advise you what needs to be done. as for the columns, if your house was built to codes , there should be footers under the slab.
 
The best advice you can get would be from a local contractor or carpenter who could actually see the garage and then advise you what needs to be done. as for the columns, if your house was built to codes , there should be footers under the slab.


"Best" advice how? Most expensive, yep. Most boring, yep. Best for the contractor, I'll give you that.

The beauty of this forum is a place for folks to get ideas from others' expertise and experiance.
 
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Not sure how helpful your local building inspection department is or whether you were even intending to get a building permit for it (around here it would probably be a misdemeanor not to for a structural change like this), but they may be able to tell you what you would need to do to meet your local building code. Or, they may tell you that you need an engineer's certification or the like which may not help you much. Anyway, just a thought.



This isn't something I would pull a permit for.. givern that I'd need to add a footer I'll just keep it as is.

T
 
Tod, I don't have pics but here is what I did in my basement; I plated both sides of my main beam (3-2" X 12s") with 3/8" steel plates. I basically sandwiched my beam. The overall span was 12' 6". I was able to remove a collumn and move one several feet. The engineer that I spoke with told me that I could span 14' with this set-up. I used 1/2" bolts staggered in a W pattern and spaced every 9". Two of my neighbors have since done the same thing after seeing what I did. It's cheaper and easier than replacing with an I-beam. If you do not completely understand I can draw some pctures for you. I hope this helps...............Kevin


Thanks Kevin, steel would work if I wanted to pursue it. I could also go LVL, I'm sure.

I suppose I could pull one post, then I'd have a span of 14' and a span of 7'. That would actually be pretty ideal.
 
Tod, if you do plate the 14' section remember that the existing column will now assume more load. I overcame that by wrapping the column with two pieces of c-channel stitch welded at the seam. You end up with a square column which is now greatly increased in load capacity. It's always something is'nt it?.................Kevin
 
fence out the deer and now deny the working man a job.......

I don't even know you anymore.....

Oh BTW Gregg called me today and said you scared him with that "Greggs far more than just a boat to me" comment and wanted to know if he had missed noticing that you wear crocs.....

He sadi he'd still come to the Chicken hunt but wants to be on the opposite end of the firing line....

Steve
 
Rereading your post. I see your in a garage, and wanted to cut down to one post. In that case, you'd have 1/2 your total beam load on that 1 post, 6050#. You'd need a 2ftx2ft footing to pick that up, so you'd probably have to cut a hole in the slab. If you remove all the posts, you'd have the 6050# at each end. I assume one end of that beam lands between your garage doors. That end could be problematic, depending on how your garage was built.


In rethinking this, I think removing one post would be the way to go and work off the existing footing. Having a 14' open area would actually be better for flow. The 14' span would terminate in a poured concrete wall on one end and the existing post on the other and the remaining 7' span would terminate in the framed wall between the garage doors (and woudl be the same as now).

If the existing footing was sized appropriately (or close enough) for that additional load and the post was strong enough as Kevin suggested, I'd be all set to stiffen up that beam and kick the post out.
 
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fence out the deer and now deny the working man a job.......

I don't even know you anymore.....

Oh BTW Gregg called me today and said you scared him with that "Greggs far more than just a boat to me" comment and wanted to know if he had missed noticing that you wear crocs.....

He sadi he'd still come to the Chicken hunt but wants to be on the opposite end of the firing line....

Steve


Gregg is so much more than a just a boat, don't forget his truck to pull the boat to my guided chukar hunt, the fishing gear to amuse me during the pre opener warm-up, the 30# king salmon to feed me and a few damn good laughs.

I didn't get the deer reference until now, I on the same page now.
 
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If you do plate the beam be sure to pre-tension it. You will need to slightly jack up the beam to get the column out. Install the plates and tighten the bolts (they will need to be torqued but I don't remember to what) before releasing the jack. Sorry for all the replies but it's all coming back to me now...............Kevin
 
If this is your last house, which judging by the cool things you've done I am guessing it may very well be, you might be able to get away with not pulling a permit even if required. If not, if it were here in NC, you could have a potential problem when you go to sell the house later. Also, just guessing on this, but if it failed and someone were to get hurt best case scenario may be that you could have an insurance coverage issue and worst case, that person could be a loved one... Just saying, pulling permits may be costly, but there's a reason for them and for the inspections that go along with them, particularly for folks that don't know exactly what they are doing or in my case would have absolutely no freaking clue what they are doing... Good luck, and I hope it turns out as well as your boat barn did.
 
Ok, the current posts are posts are picking up 7' feet of beam load, x 550psf = 3850#, divided by 1500psf soil bearing, you've probably got 1'8x1'8 footings under your slab at those 2 posts. If you take out one post, the remaining post has a 1/2 span of 7 feet on one side, and 3.5 feet on the other, so the post is picking up 10.5' x 550# =5775#, which puts you back to a little under a 2'x2' footing. If you have your original house plans, and they show a 2'x2' footing under this post (not unusual, if you've got a builder that realizes concrete's cheap insurance), you're good to go. If it's only big enough to pick up the original load, you'd still have to saw up the slab and put in a 2'x2' footing. You'd probably have to beef up your original beam for doubling the span, but not as much as pulling both posts.
Pulling both posts may still be an option, do the garage walls sit on the slab, or on a concrete stemwall? If you're on a stem wall, and the beam ends land on a wall section at least 2 feet long, perpendicular to beam direction, you could still get rid of all the posts, or if you're at least 2 feet from the top to bottom of your foundation. If the garage walls sit on the slab, I'd dig down outside the building, and see how deep it is to the bottom of the footing. I'm used to seeing 1' below grade here, because that's the minimum here to prevent frost heave. As far north as you are, your frost depth is probably greater, which is a good thing for what you're wanting to do. Point loads on concrete spread at 45 degrees outward as they go down, so for every foot of concrete height, it spreads over two feet of footprint. If your concrete is deep enough to pick up all the loads at each end, a full length span would not involve any concrete work at all. If your footing is wider than 1 foot, you wouldn't have to be as high, since you'd spread more load front to back than a narrower footing. If you don't have your house plans, I'd do some investigating to see whats under there. It doesn't cost anything to do a little shovel work.
As for buying a permit, you're not in my jurisdiction, so I don't care. Your insurance company might though, and if you get caught, they usually double the fee of the permit for starting work without it. I don't know what the politics are like with the building dept. in your area, so I don't know how much of a pain in the ass it would be to deal with them. I know this can really vary over different places, but we help people with stuff like this all the time where I work. If you didn't pull a permit on the shop, and it's req'd in your area, you may be opening a real can of worms to get building codes involved now. They'd definately make you get that on a permit. Your contractor should've taken care of that, but as the land owner, you're ultimately responsible, so if he didn't, you'd be holding the bag. Some parts of the country consider outbuildings exempt, but they aren't where I live, unless it's an agricutural building. You can probably get away with it, but still use good building practice, it's your family's home.
 
Ok, the current posts are posts are picking up 7' feet of beam load, x 550psf = 3850#, divided by 1500psf soil bearing, you've probably got 1'8x1'8 footings under your slab at those 2 posts. If you take out one post, the remaining post has a 1/2 span of 7 feet on one side, and 3.5 feet on the other, so the post is picking up 10.5' x 550# =5775#, which puts you back to a little under a 2'x2' footing. If you have your original house plans, and they show a 2'x2' footing under this post (not unusual, if you've got a builder that realizes concrete's cheap insurance), you're good to go. If it's only big enough to pick up the original load, you'd still have to saw up the slab and put in a 2'x2' footing. You'd probably have to beef up your original beam for doubling the span, but not as much as pulling both posts.
Pulling both posts may still be an option, do the garage walls sit on the slab, or on a concrete stemwall? If you're on a stem wall, and the beam ends land on a wall section at least 2 feet long, perpendicular to beam direction, you could still get rid of all the posts, or if you're at least 2 feet from the top to bottom of your foundation. If the garage walls sit on the slab, I'd dig down outside the building, and see how deep it is to the bottom of the footing. I'm used to seeing 1' below grade here, because that's the minimum here to prevent frost heave. As far north as you are, your frost depth is probably greater, which is a good thing for what you're wanting to do. Point loads on concrete spread at 45 degrees outward as they go down, so for every foot of concrete height, it spreads over two feet of footprint. If your concrete is deep enough to pick up all the loads at each end, a full length span would not involve any concrete work at all. If your footing is wider than 1 foot, you wouldn't have to be as high, since you'd spread more load front to back than a narrower footing. If you don't have your house plans, I'd do some investigating to see whats under there. It doesn't cost anything to do a little shovel work.
As for buying a permit, you're not in my jurisdiction, so I don't care. Your insurance company might though, and if you get caught, they usually double the fee of the permit for starting work without it. I don't know what the politics are like with the building dept. in your area, so I don't know how much of a pain in the ass it would be to deal with them. I know this can really vary over different places, but we help people with stuff like this all the time where I work. If you didn't pull a permit on the shop, and it's req'd in your area, you may be opening a real can of worms to get building codes involved now. They'd definately make you get that on a permit. Your contractor should've taken care of that, but as the land owner, you're ultimately responsible, so if he didn't, you'd be holding the bag. Some parts of the country consider outbuildings exempt, but they aren't where I live, unless it's an agricutural building. You can probably get away with it, but still use good building practice, it's your family's home.


Matt, I'm really enjoying thinking through this, thanks for your insight and expertise. Frost depth is 42" here, so lots of concrete below grade to get down to the footers. When you say "stem wall" I assume that is what we call a "frost wall". As far as the walls supporting the beam sitting on the sitting on the stem wall, do you mean directly on them or on the pad above them? The rear wall is poured concrete wall to full height and the beam sits on that. The front wall is 2x4 framed and sits on the slab, but has to have a frost wall and footer under it, since the slab isn't floating (can't dig it up because it is blacktopped. From what you are saying it seems like I could go full length with the beam fi I wanted to pursue it, I would think the framed wall would need some support under the beam between the garage doors.

As far as building permits where does one draw the line? I'd like you thoughts. This is something I think about. Add a couple outlets? Couple replacement windows? Roof? Siding? Gut a room and sheetrock and trim? All require permits in our town. I try to draw the line at what is reasonable. Making major structural changes does meet the criteria for what is reasonable to me. The building permit for the boat barn was $475 and the total permitting fees was $800, I don't know how that compares to your area.
 
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