sSteel shot, old doubles

W

Worth Mathewson

Active member
I might be wacking a wasp nest here, but I would like to add my thoughts on steel shot in some old doubles. To a large degree I am doing this because Aaron Beck called yesterday and stated that I was the only one he has spoken with who feels there isn't a problem with steel and SOME old doubles. And yes, since I am trying to sell English doubles for waterfowling there is some spam involved with this posting.
However, I will express the following: When steel first came on the market, and prices of old doubles much, much lower, I purchased a LC Smith Field Grade for about $170. I had heard the first of the horror stories about steel and planned to shoot steel in it until the barrels were ruined. Then I would write an article about it. If you recall, the early steel loads were very poor, especially the shot cup. Also of importance here, I guessed the barrels were choked mod/full. After about ten or more years of shooting steel in the Smith I got a choke measure and found the barrels were extra full/ extra full. I am still shooting the Smith each year. I see zero damage to the barrels. I did have to have the stock reworked a few years back, but I think it was due to frequently being in salt water while I sculled.
Was this something unusual? Well, perhaps?? Ok, lets move on to my other waterfowling guns: One of my favorites is an Ithaca Field 3 1/2 10 bore. 32 inch barrels, extra full/extra full. That one I didn't want to take a chance with, so I was lucking to find an extra set of barrels, and Brily put steel shot choke tubes in them. I shoot a lot of steel with those, and have for over twenty years. My W&C Scott back action gun was a ten bore which I had chambered into a 3 inch 12 bore. It has Brily steel shot choke tubes. I just sold my old Bonehill, which also was a 10 bore, which I had chambered into a 3 1/2 12 bore. Briley steel shot tubes in that one also.
In Australia I purchased a Charles Boswell 12 bore pigeon gun. Very tight chokes. I had a gunsmith down there open the chokes to Mod/Mod. Either he didn't do a good job, or it was a very tight Mod. I have shot about a case of steel in the Boswell and the left barrel now has a bludge near the choke. But it is a duck gun, I didn't pay that much for it, therefore, so what. I don't think it effects the gun's safety, and as Tom Roster once wrote, a bludge in the barrel might help the pattern.
Finally, on a trip to Missouri to hunt sora rails with Steve Sutton and Ira I had my Purdey pigeon gun. I shot steel 7s for several days.
Which all ends up in my thinking that shooting steel in some old doubles isn't a problem. By "some" I mean this: I am not talking about game guns, those made for 2 1/2 1oz loads. I am talking about heavy 2 3/4 or 3 inch 12 bores. Nearly all those guns have heavy barrels and strong actions. Then I am talking about guns that are tight, with little or no pitting in the barrels. Finally I am talking about guns which have had full (or even mod) chokes removed, or Brily steel shot choke tubes installed.
Not a clever plot to get you to look at my web page, but on it is an example of a gun which I am currently having work done on for my personal waterfowl gun. It is listed as sold. It is a Tudor 3 inch 12 bore. It is heavy, and in very good condition. The barrels were 32 inch. I sent them to Briley and had them cut to 29 inches, as I like shorter barrels. They also installed steel shot choke tubes,and Parkerized the barrels to flat black. The stock and forend are at a stocker who is refinishing them. Then the gun goes to an engraver for deep engravings of brant and the Delta Waterfowl logo. When done I will have a bunch in it, but view it as the gun I will spent my final years with.
Now, individuals who know more about guns than I ever will, might rule me a fool. But I have shot steel in old doubles for years without problems, and my guess is that I will continue to do so. Again, without problems. Worth Mathewson
 
Encouraging news from someone that has experienced many years shooting steel in older doubles.Your current Tudor build sounds right on.I agree with all of it.Screw in chokes make any gun more versatile,and I believe increase the value rather than deter it.Now tell us what you are shooting;factory or reloads.Mainly pressures/velocity.Thanks.
 
That is some enlightening info. Do you have some good double guns for sale? I looked a wile back but can't remember the site!!
Thanks John
 
Joe, Again, this might cause moans from some of the gun folks. But I don't pay any attention to what the shell might have as far as vel. or pressure. I shoot almost all my ducks over decoys, so favor number 3 steel. My guess is that over the years I have shot nearly all brands. The method I use to select which shell I will use is the sales or rebates at the start of the season. The best buy is the one I use. This past year Sportsman's Warehouse had a good sale on Federal Speed-Shok steel. It has a Vel. listed as 1375.
For geese I am picky. I will shoot nothing but Winchester Drylock Super Steel, BB 3 inch. I've looked all over the box and find nothing stating vel. or pressure? And down in Australia I also shot the Drylock, but 2 3/4 and 3s.
It may very well be that I am entirely too causal about all this, but I don't think so. Worth (And I SURE don't try to load my own steel!)
 
Worth, If you don't mind me asking, what species are you hunting is australia? Never heard of huntable game down there?

Thanks

Zach
 
Zack, I found it hard to believe the first time I went down to Australia for hunting in 2002. (I lived there for five months in 1972, but didn't get out of the city) The duck hunting is some of the best in the world! The chief duck is their black duck, nearly exactly like our's. Same wonderful hunting--decoys, calling, wary ducks, those blacks. They also have a couple of species of teal, but they are about wigeon size. And my favorite is their one legal diver, the white-eyed duck, which they call hardheads. Very close to redheads, big flocks, same classic sweep into decoys. I went back down in 2005 and 2006. In fact, I shipped one of my Barnegats down, purchased the Boswell I mentioned, and got a used pickup. I fully planned to go down each year for as long as I was able. However, due to the drought they closed the season in 2007 and again this year. So it appears that it is questionable if I will be able to go down again. It amounts to one of the largest disappointments of my life, as I got to know some surperb waterfowlers down there, and as stated, the hunting was better than excellent. Worth
 
Hey Worth, thanks for the "actual" word on shooting old doubles with steel. It's good to know that every Elsie isn't going to separate the barrels and splinter the forend.
 
Worth, your killing me! The Tudor was the one gun in your listing I really wanted to buy, but it was already listed as sold. I look hard for 32" barrels on 12ga doubles because I like they way they balance and the longer sighting plane.

I hope you enjoy shooting that "castrated" duck gun! (hehe)


p.s. I have a friend who has shot over a thousand rounds of steel through his Belgium Superposed Browning, chocked full and mod, with no ill effects.
 
I don't disagree with of most of what you said. As I stated in the previous post, there are a few things one needs to consider beofre doing so. ie chokes, Gun Maker, stock problems. My brother has shot regular speed steel(4-7's) in his full choke model 12 for years, I know of others that shoot hevi shot and steel through there old guns with no problems, some even through damascous barrels. I don't beleive any of them shoot larger than 4's though and to error on saftey side more open chokes the better. I typcially don't mess with buldges, that is a weak spot that will never be to the orginally strength, especially when the bulge is near your hands or face.

I do disagree with knowing the pressures of the loads before using many old guns, not so much relating to barrel strength but more so to stock problems. I would quess 90% of Smith stock problems are caused by 2 factors oil soaked wood and heavy recoil caused by to hot or heavy of loads. As I stated before this can be alleviated by premptive glass bedding. Tom armbrust has done plenty of pressure data on most all the of the factory loads and some of these loads have been higher than SAAMI specs, so I do believe that taking a few monents to research the proper loads is benefical to you and the gun.
 
Worth

Here is a picture you will enjoy. This is my uncle's 1903 Parker. He had the chokes opened and he shot steel with it before he passed. I take it out once or twice a year for a classic hunt. I'll have to take out his LC Smith (32 inch full/full) for a diver shoot sometime, but I'll think I'll use some tungsten shot for that hunt.

BWCans.jpg

 
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Hey Worth good to hear from you. I have a question for you. If you had a W.W.Greener 32" full and full would you shoot steel out of it as is? It seems that most of your guns you have had Briley work on them for tubes. I don't really want to mess with the chokes but I'm curious if you think that the gun could take steel the way it is. Good to hear from you and I look forward to your reply. Hank Garvey
 
Very enlightening information Worth, thankyou.

I've been shooting that Greener quite a lot the past few months. In fact, I just got it back from the my gunsmith who opened the chokes for me. Much improvment for my style of shooting. Shes gonna make a fine dove and duck gun this season!!!! Thanks again!!! I couldn't be happier!!
 
Josh, where did your choke constriction end up after having them opened?
Click to expand...


Mike,

I'm sitting at .010" constriction in the right barrel and .014" in the left. Thats a hair under a LtMod/Mod combo. I'm liking it so far.

I'm on the hunt for a pair of Chamber Mates right now preferably a 12ga/28ga. A buddy has this combo for and it performs very nicely on doves.
 
Hank, No, I wouldn't shoot steel in the Greener with full/full chokes. I think that I have gotten away with my L.C. Smith extra full/ extra full due to a fluke?? But with the Greener, I wouldn't hesitate to open the chokes up. I had a Model 12 Heavy Duck two years ago (ya, I love Model 12s and 97s!) and my gunsmith only charged me $55 to do it. I had him take it out to improved. I don't know if they all work that cheap, but would guess it wouldn't be much more per barrel? With my Ithaca 10 bore, I didn't want to change the original barrels, so got the extra set for steel. Hope you have an excellent season this year.
And Josh, thanks for the note. Sure glad you like the Greener. I sure like those Empire Grades myself. Best, Worth
 
Josh, have you patterned steel shells in those chokes yet? I just called my gunsmith, I pick mine up Wednesday and he had not done the chokes yet, so I reordered my left barrel from .0020 to .0017, after reading Worths story about the mod barrel that bulged. Right now the barrel is .0055!

Those tube mates are available from Cabelas if you have not located them. I wonder how 20ga shells pattern out of a 12ga? I have cases of 20ga shells and no 20ga. For $48 I can get a tube and not get beat up at the skeet range.
 
http://www.gauge-mate.com/index.htm

Mike,Cabelas doesn't carry Chamber-Mates,which have a integral extractor ,like Briley and Seminole.They do cary GuageMates.Site above.In the 12 to 20ga,you would need to remove the insert to remove the empty shell,however they do make the "gold" version,which has a cut out that allows you to remove the shell,without taking out the entire tube.They are,(Gold) around 150 and the Chamber-Mates about 275.Briley makes the best,but much more.
 
I don't plan to shoot steel from it. I have some bismuth left or kent tung/iron.

I tried a set of Briley inserts for a beretta, they wouldn't fit. The owner of the local gun club where I shoot is keeping his eye out for used Brileys or Chambermates for me.

Gunsmith charged me $85 total for both barrels. He did an excellent job, POA wasn't altered in the slightest.
 
Referring back to Worth's original post on shooting steel out of old doubles; if you put a calculator to Worth's antidotal evidence, steel shot even makes more sense.

An average price for steel shell is 50 cents a shot, with a box price of $12 plus. Deals are always out there ( paid 29 cents per shell last year. $72 per case and that includes tax), but lets just use the 50 cents as a base.

If you shoot 200 rounds at waterfowl (8 boxes for those in Rio Linda), that is $100 for the season. Shooting the high tech non-tox at $3 a shell ( except for Lee who will be using arrows), this would come to $600 per season or $500 more than steel shot.

You can get a lot of gunsmithing done for $500 and over 2-4 seasons, you can replace most guns, or buy a second gun, or get a custom stock.
 
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