Yes, I noticed that as well. Nine and ten shot tss are popular with folks using sub gauge for turkey. I certainly don't need 900 pellets in a 12 gauge and so switched to eight shot. Far better penetration and less shot outside the circle. RM
Shooting School
- Thread starter RM Anderson
- Start date
I have no doubt TSS is much more effective than lead, but I haven't tried it for just that reason. We hunt in increasingly developed areas, houses and other buildings are closer and closer to our hunting spots. In CT tidal areas, one can hunt waterfowl 250 feet from a building. When we got the first batch of HeviShot and Remington HD in the early 2000's, I was asked to see how far I could kill ducks at. As measured with my laser rangefinder, some were killed clean at over 80 yards. We thought we were supermen killing ducks at 60 yards with lead, then along came kryptonite. It doesn't take a math wiz to figure out that 250 feet is only 83 yards, the potential danger is obvious. It only takes one mistake to seriously injure a non-hunter and we all suffer. The new TSS loads apparently trump the HS and HD loads, it seems entirely possible to kill a person with #2's (the max legal size here) at legal hunting distance from a structure. Not a criticism of you guys using it, just saying.
Clinton John
Active member
Tha
Infact you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would bigger then size 6 tss for waterfowl.
And while still lethal at extreme ranges on waterfowl, your not going to have the ability to kill someone at those ranges.
Unless you were specifically trying to do so.
Anyways that's enough about me talking about tss. As I feel I'm side tracking the OP's thread.
that is true. But no one would hunt waterfowl with that size tss shot.
Infact you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would bigger then size 6 tss for waterfowl.
And while still lethal at extreme ranges on waterfowl, your not going to have the ability to kill someone at those ranges.
Unless you were specifically trying to do so.
Anyways that's enough about me talking about tss. As I feel I'm side tracking the OP's thread.
I agree completely. Had my gun fitted to me and it made a world of difference. And it was relatively cheap. The place I went to made me wear my typical hunting garb to fit it properly. It was a 90 plus degree day and I was in my MN winter hunting outfit.
Mark, The only negative side that I see to getting a shotgun fitted is it would mean having to shoot a double or at the very least, something with wood (love my synthetic SBE). I don't doubt what you and Henry are saying, I just believe at the stage that I am at, lack of proper form or lack of successful images stored are at the root of my problem. Consistency is where my struggles are currently. Some days I shoot around 80%; the very next day 65%. Competitive shooting is not something I have ever done or likely will do, I just want to make better use of limited opportunities in the field. RM
Maybe, or even probably, but there are ways to begin to narrow things down - and a good fitter/coach could save you lots of trial and error in a fairly short time. Or, reading the Currie book on gunfitting may give you some insights as it did me.
A couple specific suggestions, if you havent already done them...
1 - check your gun's static point of impact - there is often some variation here. Set a 3'x3' (ish) target with vertical and horizontal lines intersecting in the middle of the target 25-30 yards away (closer is fine, too, but this distance might give a little more spread and information). Use a table and/or mounts of some sort to take movement out of the equation. Aim as you would a rifle, and fire a couple shots at the point of intersection (add a big dot at that intersection if you need something you can see more clearly). Open one of your shells and count the pellets, then count the pellets on the board noting how many are above/below the horizontal line and how many are right/left of the vertical line. This test will give insight into how low/high or right/left your gun shoots statically. If its way off, you need a gunsmith.
2 - test point of impact dynamically - same target (a steel target you can repaint after a couple shots is ideal as long as you are a good distance, but wood or cardboard with replaceable paper is fine). Take a couple practice mounts to get comfortable and relaxed and to get your feet right. Start with your gun at your hip (or however you carry/hold it in the field in a semi-ready position), focus on the same intersection/dot, then mount and as soon as the gun hits your shoulder, fire. Do this 2 or 3 times and you should see a pattern emerge. Compare to the static POI pattern. In theory they should be similar, but if notably different then you need to evaluate eye dominance, gun fit, and mounting consistency. As is likely obvious, these 3 things affect each other. Like tuning a carburetted engine where adjusting timing, fuel, and air flow are iterative processes because changing one impacts another. If off left or right and you did the first round with both eyes open, try with the off-eye (the one opposite to the shoulder you shoot off) shut. Any change? If off high or low relative to the static test, re-consider your mount. If you didnt have a consistent pattern emerging, spend more time practicing and locking in your mount, and try a few more times.
By now, you've put a box or two of shells through your gun. Are you feeling it anywhere (shoulder, cheek, wrist) or noticing any flinch? If so, gun fit may very well be the culprit.
None of this provides specific solutions... only data points to help you narrow down potential problem areas. If you're getting consistent and good results and feeling no recoil (or at least no discomfort from recoil), then your gun probably fits reasonably well and you just need more time shooting at moving targets to figure it out and develop muscle memory.
Henry, Like you I do not have a strong dominant right eye. I think at least some of my problems occur when I try to crowd the target or check the lead rather than trusting the system. This results in the lead looking appropriate because the left eye sees it differently. Obviously my concentration level is to blame as well as hesitation. Thinking instead of feeling. My wife made me feel better when she reminded me that Tom Brady had shitty days as well. On a positive note, it has been awhile since I've had 25 straight misses! Alot of my current misses are because I am trying to hit each presentation early, sweet and late. Obviously sweet is the easiest but nothing is ideal in the field. Unfortunately I have caught myself flinching on occasion which is another consideration. Back to the beginning; I have patterned my shotgun dynamically and it shoots to point of aim. RM
Vince Pagliaroli
Well-known member
As one ages the dominant Eye Can and Does Change for some of us. I've been left handed and right eye dominant for most of my life (I shoot and fly cast right arm.) Several years ago my right eye was no longer the dominant eye. That was one helluva tough pill to swallow, yet I did and made adjustments.
Since cataract surgery in both eyes and medication for Dry Eye.... My Gawd I SEE like Superman, HA! If the rest of my body was as good as my eyes Now I'd be a Wholly TERROR. If everything that I shot at dropped dead I would get bored real fast. I've never thought of game as Targets always as Food. When I'm hungry I Hunt much better.
my 2 cents
Since cataract surgery in both eyes and medication for Dry Eye.... My Gawd I SEE like Superman, HA! If the rest of my body was as good as my eyes Now I'd be a Wholly TERROR. If everything that I shot at dropped dead I would get bored real fast. I've never thought of game as Targets always as Food. When I'm hungry I Hunt much better.
my 2 cents
True that! I'm stubborn as a mule and missing keeps me hungry for improvement! RM
I miss on early and late, too. Early being before the gun gets to my shoulder, and late being more than a second after it hits my shoulder. My shooting percentage goes up tremendously when in between.
Clinton John
Active member
You can fit a synthetic stock. I have my Beretta guns fitted to me for LOP,cast and drop.
Beretta comes with cast and drop shims. I also cut my stocks down and changed butt pads thickness to get me into my personal lop range.
Im not certain but I believe the nelli'ys use cast and drop shims as well.
While it might not be as perfect a fit as fitting up a wood stock. It certainly is better then just basic out the box.
That's why I only buy Beretta now, they have the most adjustment.
Check your gun, possibility could use a lil tweak to get it a bit better for you.
Graco adjustable stock plates are also an option (I'm sure there are others, but have a friend who uses and likes the Graco).
Shot again today. Back to 80%. One thing that I noticed on my last few slumps was no rest day in between shoots. Another difference is I have exhausted my supply of Gun Club meaning I don't care where the two piece federal hulls end up. Naturally I try to pick up after myself but there was alot of incentive to keep track of the remington hulls for reloading. The benefit of course is getting more practice reading a myriad of lines rather than 6-8 set shooting locations. RM
That's among the top reason I put up my semi-auto and moved to doubles many years ago - I hate hunting for hulls!
Years ago, when I was in my early twenties, I had a beautiful Winchester 20ga Pigeon Grade over and under. Never before and since have I had a gun that beat me so mercilessly. My cheek bones still hurt just thinking about it. It's long gone now but it sure was purdy! RM
Clinton John
Active member
Lol my face and shoulder hurts every time I look over at the gun cabinet and see my grandfather's single shot 34 inch barreled 10 gauge and my marlin bolt action 10 gauge.
My shoulder hurt just reading this...
Clinton John
Active member
That's why they are in the gun cabinet and not the gun safe.
No more live ammunition for them
RM,
From what I gather reading your thread you're thinking your way through various problems such as the all-important vision. Improving ones shooting beyond "just OK" is a thinking man's game, you have the right attitude.
I'm gonna pile on here and suggest that you tinker with gun fit, at a minimum to the extent you can do it yourself. Consistency is linked to gun fit, you mentioned bouncing around from good to poor day over day so a little stock tweaking might be in order.
If I understand you correctly, your gun has a composite stock. They can be difficult to adjust, but not impossible. The low hanging fruit to DIY is length and pitch. Changing those dimensions may also increase the drop where your face contacts the stock, if your stock is not a parallel comb, and almost certainly will reduce perceived recoil. Most out of the box stocks provide a relatively short length of pull, around 14"-14 1/4". The average person (if he actually exists) can easily handle, and will benefit from, an additional 1/8"-1/4" of length. You can test this idea without anything more than a couple layers of winter clothes. It might take a while to get used to it, try pushing the envelope by overdoing it a little maybe to the tune of 1/2". Pitch is a little more of a chore, but partially unscrewing the pad and placing a couple of washers on the top screw for 1/4"-1/2" of difference top to bottom may be an eye opener in how you mount the gun and how it feels against your shoulder. Experiment and find what works, not just short term "hit %", but also recoil. You mentioned getting whacked by a 101, adding pitch (positive pitch) almost always reduces face slap. After tinkering if you want to make the changes permanent, length and pitch spacers are available online for small money and are easily installed even on composite stocks.
From what I gather reading your thread you're thinking your way through various problems such as the all-important vision. Improving ones shooting beyond "just OK" is a thinking man's game, you have the right attitude.
I'm gonna pile on here and suggest that you tinker with gun fit, at a minimum to the extent you can do it yourself. Consistency is linked to gun fit, you mentioned bouncing around from good to poor day over day so a little stock tweaking might be in order.
If I understand you correctly, your gun has a composite stock. They can be difficult to adjust, but not impossible. The low hanging fruit to DIY is length and pitch. Changing those dimensions may also increase the drop where your face contacts the stock, if your stock is not a parallel comb, and almost certainly will reduce perceived recoil. Most out of the box stocks provide a relatively short length of pull, around 14"-14 1/4". The average person (if he actually exists) can easily handle, and will benefit from, an additional 1/8"-1/4" of length. You can test this idea without anything more than a couple layers of winter clothes. It might take a while to get used to it, try pushing the envelope by overdoing it a little maybe to the tune of 1/2". Pitch is a little more of a chore, but partially unscrewing the pad and placing a couple of washers on the top screw for 1/4"-1/2" of difference top to bottom may be an eye opener in how you mount the gun and how it feels against your shoulder. Experiment and find what works, not just short term "hit %", but also recoil. You mentioned getting whacked by a 101, adding pitch (positive pitch) almost always reduces face slap. After tinkering if you want to make the changes permanent, length and pitch spacers are available online for small money and are easily installed even on composite stocks.
Everyone has been most helpful and I don't want to give the impression that I am ignoring the importance of gun fit. I have experimented with the spacers that affect drop at comb which came with the shotgun. Some people suggest floating the target but for field shooting I like the shotgun to hit maybe 60/40, basically paint of aim. I'm not sure adding variables during the learning process would be helpful. Before I really got into shotguns and bird hunting, I was an avid handgun hunter. The learning curve, as with shotgunning, is quite steep and the secret is to be consistent with your grip. At some point in the hopefully not to distant future I hope to be consistent enough with my gun mount and will address these areas of concern. Honestly as much as I would like to blame the gun on my off days, I know in my heart it is me. One thing that I have failed to mention is that several years ago I was in an auto accident and suffered a tramatic brain injury. So basically I am in the process of rerouting information to make things happen in a positive way. That is my biggest reason for not messing with the gun fit too much. On a more positive note, my wife and I have always wanted to hunt Rio turkeys in Texas so I am looking at booking a one on one with the Ash Shooting School. RM