roy brewington
Well-known member
Winchester also makes Bismuth shells. Were actually some good sales on them a while back.
$4 a shell? Holy cow!
- Thread starter Jeff Reardon
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Perhaps someone with a medical background can answer my question. I have been following this discussion of bismuth shot but I have been kind of biting my tongue so as not to offend anyone. How is it that bismuth, a heavy metal, is any safer than lead which IS known to be dangerous? Not just to the ducks themselves but also to humans who eat the ducks considering the frangible nature of this material. To put it in context, there has been push to outlaw lead bullets for the same reason in regards to big game hunting. I am not trying to poo poo anyone's favorite load, but as a fellow conservationists, I don't think we've thought this one through. RM
MIKE-SID
Active member
Very interesting and curious point!
The internet says not toxic like lead. Maybe someone knows the answer.
MIKE-SID
Active member
Wow.
I'm hoping the few pellets I might ingest would pass just as I ate them and not breakdown.
What do you guys think?
One important difference is humans have chelation at their disposal, ducks do not. Fortunately, the use of bismuth shot is not widespread because of its cost.
RM
Just like lead shot, they'll pass right through. Not something to spend any time worrying about, unless you're sitting there eating shot as a snack. Naturally, we should try to reduce exposure as much as possible by cleaning birds well and removing shot... but the stray pellet that gets through will not likely do a bit of harm.
Most of us are of an age that grew up in lead-painted houses with lead in the plumbing and I'd bet more than one of us spent our childhood biting on lead split-shot weights or holding weights in our mouths while working on tackle. I have little doubt I swallowed some of all of that.
My point is, many and probably most of us our age have had some level of lead exposure - but lead poisoning is damned rare (and becoming more rare with less lead paint, etc.). I'm not saying lead is safe for ingestion or that we shouldn't take precautions... but for those of us who enjoy hunting (or fishing) as a sport, there are a whole lot of things likely to harm or kill us before a little lead or bismuth.
Henry,
My concern with bismuth is not so much with our health but for ducks and other waterfowl that ingest it. I've always taken exception with the various government entities that granted bismuth shot its non-tox status when in fact it has been proven a neurological toxin. The attached pdf file highlights my concerns although I would be the first to admit it's a little above my pay grade. RM
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I would search for more recent studies, if you want to pursue the potential for Bi toxicity by pellet ingestion. The study you found was 20 years ago and somebody probably wrote another since. My (admittedly rapid) read of the paper made me suspicious that it was a hit piece. For instance, the writer found literature documenting that ducks dosed with Bi had a very small elevation in Bi blood concentration compared to the control group. He said that didn't make sense, and called into question the research. His position was that Bi blood levels must be elevated because Pb ingestion results in elevated Pb blood concentrations. He presented no science to back that assertion. It's well established (do a search for digestive heavy metal absorption rates) that heavy metals have a broad range of absorption rates in the digestive tract. There was too much conjecture for me to be concerned about Bi in the environment based on this paper. Shoot some ducks and eat away, just don't bite down hard.
Unless you drink Pepto by the bottle every day, or eat pellets as snacks (like noted above) you dont have much to worry about. Given the extremely low number of hunters using bismuth shot, especially compared to the amount of lead back in the day, nor do the ducks.
Bismuth (Pepto-Bismol) toxicity, though rare, usually results from long-term overuse and causes neurological issues (confusion, tremors, unsteady gait, memory loss, seizures) and symptoms of salicylate toxicity (tinnitus, dizziness, rapid breathing) due to the salicylate content. Common signs include black stools/tongue, while severe cases involve mental status changes, muscle spasms, and coma. Treatment involves stopping the product, and recovery can take months, highlighting the need to follow dosing instructions and seek medical help for prolonged symptoms or overdose.
Signs & Symptoms of Toxicity
Bismuth (Pepto-Bismol) toxicity, though rare, usually results from long-term overuse and causes neurological issues (confusion, tremors, unsteady gait, memory loss, seizures) and symptoms of salicylate toxicity (tinnitus, dizziness, rapid breathing) due to the salicylate content. Common signs include black stools/tongue, while severe cases involve mental status changes, muscle spasms, and coma. Treatment involves stopping the product, and recovery can take months, highlighting the need to follow dosing instructions and seek medical help for prolonged symptoms or overdose.
Signs & Symptoms of Toxicity
- Neurological: Confusion, memory loss, tremor, muscle twitching (myoclonus), difficulty walking (ataxia), lethargy, anxiety, depression, seizures, coma.
- Salicylate-Related: Ringing in the ears (tinnitus), dizziness, headache, rapid breathing, severe vomiting, weakness.
- Physical: Blackening of the tongue/teeth/stools (common, harmless), fatigue, increased sweating.
- Chronic Overuse: Taking high doses for months or years.
- High Doses: Taking a large amount at once (overdose).
- Interactions: Combining with aspirin, NSAIDs, or blood thinners increases bleeding risk.
- Vulnerable Groups: Elderly, kidney disease, bleeding disorders.
- Symptoms don't improve or worsen after 2 days.
- You experience ringing in the ears or hearing loss.
- You suspect an overdose (call Poison Control or seek emergency care).
- Stop Use: Immediately discontinue bismuth subsalicylate.
- Supportive Care: Treatment focuses on managing symptoms.
- Recovery: Neurological symptoms usually improve gradually as bismuth clears, but severe cases can have lasting effects.
- Follow label directions strictly; don't exceed 8 doses in 24 hours.
- Don't use for more than 2 days without consulting a doctor.
- Inform your doctor about all medications you take.
Between 1983 and 1980 there were over 1000 cases of bismuth encephalopathy in France alone. Bismuth is a neurotoxin yet no tests were performed to measure bismuth levels in the ducks brain. Furthermore, bismuth is absorbed by biomatter such as the plants that ducks eat meaning it stays in the food chain. Again, humans have access to chelation therapy, ducks do not. Lead is still killing ducks to this day; why add yet another heavy metal to the mix. It is not well known, but Dupont poisoned the entire planet with PTFE, the ingredient in non-stick cookware. It is a forever chemical. Are we really to believe that if a government agency deems something safe that it is really so? Follow the money, RM
Not a hit piece but a carefully written thesis. I encourage everyone following this thread to take some time and carefully read it. RM
Ducks don't have this option!
benp
Well-known member
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I've heard about this company but don't know anyone that shoots it. Looks like you have to find a place near you that sells it but if you're looking for options this could be one.
I like Kent fasteel 2.0, hasn't failed me. I tried boss one year and didn't notice a difference compared to Kent steel.
The bismuth in shot is in its metallic form, not bismuth subsalicylate. The form can be more important than the elements involved.
Yes, indeed. The author also cited how differences in ph can affect how quickly bismuth is absorbed into the ecosystem. Lest we forget, for centuries lead was considered safe. Today we can laugh at the old axiom, "A night with venus and a lifetime with mercury." My concern is what will the next 50 years teach us after thousands of tons of this material are spread across our wetlands. RM
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It would be interesting to know the real numbers, but I'd have to believe it is a tiny fraction of the amount of lead being spread pre-ban (due to fewer hunters, smaller limits, and cost of bismuth meaning it is only a fraction of sold/spent ammo).
This brings to mind something I did back when we had the big oil spill in the gulf (ruptured well). Our media and scientists were freaking out about the hundred+ million gallons that leaked out over those 90 days and the long-term catastrophe it would create. Now, I make no argument that such a spill causes (and caused) significant environmental damage and should be avoided/prevented as much as possible... but the hysteria just seemed over the top, and my curiosity got the better of me. I started researching the overall volume of the Gulf of Mexico, then compared it to a nearby (and sizeable) lake. It didnt take much calculation to realize a comparable spill in this lake would be <5 gallons, which I suspect is less than is spewed from the motors of boats that use that lake every year.
My point being, that while "thousands of tons" (like hundreds of millions of gallons) sounds hugely scary, when put to the scale of the area it "covers" it seems much less catastrophic. We have over 300 million acres of wetlands in the US. Let's assume a high number for lead and bismuth tonnage at 5 thousand tons... that's about 10 million pounds of lead and bismuth. Spreading that across our wetlands equates to about 1/2 of 1 ounce per acre.
Of course, distribution isn't even and could be much more concentrated in certain areas, but even assuming 1000x concentration would yield less than 0.15 ounces per square meter.
None of this matters, of course, for the few waterfowl that ingest a lot of pellets - they'll die. But ir does suggest that the majority will either not be exposed or will be exposed at low enough levels not to matter.
Just one man's opinion, and certainly not an excuse to do something we know is bad... but a reminder that perspective is important. I don't know if the estimates have been subsequently updated... but at the time of the lead shot "debate", I recall the estimate of waterfowl deaths due to lead poisoning were on the order of 1-2% and estimates living with around 10% with above baseline lead levels. Important and not immaterial, but not crisis (in my opinion). I would certainly bet my cripple/die later count was greater with the early steel shot than it had been with lead (at a much higher ratio than 10%, much less 1-2%).
This is the key point. The metallic form is much less soluble.
Another consideration is how many ducks are wounded by less effective iron shot, are not recovered and die later, vs. ducks killed outright with bismuth and help fill the hunter's limit.
Kim,
You make some very good points. On solubility, much depends on the PH. Your second point is also valid but I will take it one step further. Hitting ducks/geese in the head and neck region guarantees a kill. I think where hunters go astray with steel shot, or any shot for that matter, is using too large of shot size for sufficient pattern density. IMHO, BB shot and above are useless in a 3" 12 gauge. Not many people in my age group are interested in using a red dot sight for their shotgun, but one unexpected consequence was hitting the vast majority in the head and neck. Consider this, I have recovered many TSS pellets from turkeys shot at extended range. No penetration; stopped just under the skin. If the very best shot in existence won't penetrate past the feathers, what can we expect from less dense materials? Perhaps if the money spent on $4 shells was spent on target loads for practice or an Aimpoint Acro, cleaner kills would be the result. RM