Aging Ducks Before Cooking
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
Okay, I have some time now:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765146/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11763739
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11763739
I pulled this from a Public Health education overview:
E. coli O157:H7 bacteria and other pathogenic E. coli are believed to mostly live in the intestines of cattle, but these bacteria have also been found in the intestines of chickens, deer, sheep, and pigs. [1, 35] A 2003 study on the prevalence of E. coli O157:H7 in livestock at 29 county and three large state agricultural fairs in the United States found that E. coli O157:H7 could be isolated from 13.8% of beef cattle, 5.9% of dairy cattle, 3.6% of pigs, 5.2% of sheep, and 2.8% of goats. [36] Over seven percent of pest fly pools also tested positive for E. coli O157:H7. [36] Shiga toxin-producing E. coli does not make the animals that carry it ill, the animals are merely the reservoir for the bacteria. [35] [1]
Okay, chickens are not game birds. Would any of you consider hanging a dead chicken with its entrails intact for a week or so, and then cooking it intact? Instead of chopping its head off and dropping it in hot water and plucking it...let's shoot it with a load of #4s and do this.
Now, help me understand why this seems rational for wild game birds? Do migratory game birds really only exist in exclusively pristine, clean, environments, feeding in DU and Delta Waterfowl established and managed wetland complexes?
Question 1: What web footed winged "critters" routinely feed on waste grain in cattle pastures?
Question 2: Why is it that I see so many migratory waterfowl concentrated in livestock pastures?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765146/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11763739
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11763739
I pulled this from a Public Health education overview:
E. coli O157:H7 bacteria and other pathogenic E. coli are believed to mostly live in the intestines of cattle, but these bacteria have also been found in the intestines of chickens, deer, sheep, and pigs. [1, 35] A 2003 study on the prevalence of E. coli O157:H7 in livestock at 29 county and three large state agricultural fairs in the United States found that E. coli O157:H7 could be isolated from 13.8% of beef cattle, 5.9% of dairy cattle, 3.6% of pigs, 5.2% of sheep, and 2.8% of goats. [36] Over seven percent of pest fly pools also tested positive for E. coli O157:H7. [36] Shiga toxin-producing E. coli does not make the animals that carry it ill, the animals are merely the reservoir for the bacteria. [35] [1]
Okay, chickens are not game birds. Would any of you consider hanging a dead chicken with its entrails intact for a week or so, and then cooking it intact? Instead of chopping its head off and dropping it in hot water and plucking it...let's shoot it with a load of #4s and do this.
Now, help me understand why this seems rational for wild game birds? Do migratory game birds really only exist in exclusively pristine, clean, environments, feeding in DU and Delta Waterfowl established and managed wetland complexes?
Question 1: What web footed winged "critters" routinely feed on waste grain in cattle pastures?
Question 2: Why is it that I see so many migratory waterfowl concentrated in livestock pastures?
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Kevin Layne
Active member
You make very good points that are hard for me to refute with my limited knowledge on the topic. However, I and many other routinely hang unplucked and ungutted birds or throw them in the fridge 3-7 days prior to cleaning. I know of no one who has ever gotten sick after eating these birds, ever!!! Why?
Kevin, I apologize, I have a teleconference to get to soon, so I will be very brief:
There really is no way to prove or disprove a negative. It is simply a null outcome. Yes, zeros do matter in science.
I assume you cook them to an internal temperature that is high enough to kill any potential pathogenic bacteria...
I assume you do not consume the entrails, unlike some European tradition influenced gastronomes who do this with squab, pheasants, grouse and woodcock...
I assume you don't do this with birds that are badly shot-up...
I assume you are not eating the volume of birds this way that would significantly elevate or raise your individual risk probability for infection... As I mentioned previously, most of these organisms are found in hospital environments. They are NOT uniformly distributed throughout the country. I found no study that attempted to address whether ingestion of these pathogenic bacteria altered gut flora of the consuming bird host. Keep in mind, enteric bacterial populations are constantly "jockeying" for turf within any G.I. tract, colony expansion is influence by resource array availability, pH, and substrate area as well as growth suppressing compounds produced and released from competitor bacteria-this is where the beta-lactam antibiotics like penicillin came from. One point of concern is that nowhere did I come accross evidence documenting the death of these host animals from consumption of these human pathogenic bacterial forms.
There really is no way to prove or disprove a negative. It is simply a null outcome. Yes, zeros do matter in science.
I assume you cook them to an internal temperature that is high enough to kill any potential pathogenic bacteria...
I assume you do not consume the entrails, unlike some European tradition influenced gastronomes who do this with squab, pheasants, grouse and woodcock...
I assume you don't do this with birds that are badly shot-up...
I assume you are not eating the volume of birds this way that would significantly elevate or raise your individual risk probability for infection... As I mentioned previously, most of these organisms are found in hospital environments. They are NOT uniformly distributed throughout the country. I found no study that attempted to address whether ingestion of these pathogenic bacteria altered gut flora of the consuming bird host. Keep in mind, enteric bacterial populations are constantly "jockeying" for turf within any G.I. tract, colony expansion is influence by resource array availability, pH, and substrate area as well as growth suppressing compounds produced and released from competitor bacteria-this is where the beta-lactam antibiotics like penicillin came from. One point of concern is that nowhere did I come accross evidence documenting the death of these host animals from consumption of these human pathogenic bacterial forms.
Vince Pagliaroli
Well-known member
I'll only age birds with entrails in the frig, after checking well for no shot to the gut. These birds I only fillet. Birds for roasting, are gutted and cavity cleaned. Plus they all had to be cooled and placed in paper bags prior to that. Plastic bag = spoilage.
Having worked in a water treatment plant and sewage plant. I have seen many Mallards & Black Ducks feeding in the wet and dry "treatment" beds. Where the birds come from, and what they fed upon prior to being shot and eaten, is a roll of the dice.
Canada Geese routinely feed on freshly spread cow manure. I live in a county that has more cows than people. We see it all the time, and I've witnessed it elsewhere like almost all waterfowlers have.
That said, after what I have seen in the kitchens of bars, restaurants and the backs of grocery stores. I have little faith in Public Health Inspectors, as many seem to have even less knowledge than many of us.
It's been awhile since I've been in a slaughterhouse, and I don't even want to start on that subject.
In Canada I watched as a meat processor screamed into the phone at the Wildlife Officer as to WHY his shop, and meat had to be contaminated with One Feathered WING on each bird? And WHY no officer was there to check each bird? I left before he resolved his issue.
So our conversation can go on and on, and there are no easy answers. Education and common sense do help, and if it's yer time to Go. Then Be Ready. I just feel that the more that I take responsibility for the meat my family consumes, the better off we are.
Bottom line, to each their own and stupidity has it's own reward.
Kevin - I, nor anyone I know has ever gotten ill from properly aged birds either. So I'm with ya. WHY?
Having worked in a water treatment plant and sewage plant. I have seen many Mallards & Black Ducks feeding in the wet and dry "treatment" beds. Where the birds come from, and what they fed upon prior to being shot and eaten, is a roll of the dice.
Canada Geese routinely feed on freshly spread cow manure. I live in a county that has more cows than people. We see it all the time, and I've witnessed it elsewhere like almost all waterfowlers have.
That said, after what I have seen in the kitchens of bars, restaurants and the backs of grocery stores. I have little faith in Public Health Inspectors, as many seem to have even less knowledge than many of us.
It's been awhile since I've been in a slaughterhouse, and I don't even want to start on that subject.
In Canada I watched as a meat processor screamed into the phone at the Wildlife Officer as to WHY his shop, and meat had to be contaminated with One Feathered WING on each bird? And WHY no officer was there to check each bird? I left before he resolved his issue.
So our conversation can go on and on, and there are no easy answers. Education and common sense do help, and if it's yer time to Go. Then Be Ready. I just feel that the more that I take responsibility for the meat my family consumes, the better off we are.
Bottom line, to each their own and stupidity has it's own reward.
Kevin - I, nor anyone I know has ever gotten ill from properly aged birds either. So I'm with ya. WHY?
Kevin Layne
Active member
Maybe I've just been lucky but I've hung ducks on the garage wall for up to 8 days with guts still in them. Never looked to see if entrails were punctured. I routinely hang them a couple days or throw them in the fridge, guts and all for 2-7 days with no regard to entrail puntures. Then I fillet them, wash them and freeze them. I may brine and smoke them or BBQ to medium rare and eat them (always a lot of pink in them. Never had a problem with me or the family. But I will also eat leftovers including, game, steak, stews and whatever else I find in the fridge for up to two weeks. Maybe I'm lucky, or have an iron stomach, or people just worry too much. I wish I knew the answer.
Jon Yenulonis
Well-known member
All I know is, I was sicker than a proverbial dog, ya know, like I'd been "shot at and missed- Shit at and hit" last week for about a whole week, and I DID NOT EAT ANY WILD GAME!
For whatever that's worth. (I did eat at one of the fast food Mexican joints though, named after a particular pepper).
Just my opinion, I am not a big fan of aging my game, don't really know why, just never do it. But the one thing I do strive to do is cool and take care of the meat immediately.
My wife and I actually own a restaurant. I have to deal with the local Health Inspector quite often. She always has me on my heals, paranoid of what "can" happen if conditions are right. Just in case you're wondering, she has told me however, more like thanked me for keeping one of the cleanest restaurants in the county.
Jon
For whatever that's worth. (I did eat at one of the fast food Mexican joints though, named after a particular pepper).
Just my opinion, I am not a big fan of aging my game, don't really know why, just never do it. But the one thing I do strive to do is cool and take care of the meat immediately.
My wife and I actually own a restaurant. I have to deal with the local Health Inspector quite often. She always has me on my heals, paranoid of what "can" happen if conditions are right. Just in case you're wondering, she has told me however, more like thanked me for keeping one of the cleanest restaurants in the county.
Jon
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A Michael Chase
Active member
Carl: I tried your brine tonight on a widgeon that I killed this weekend. We grilled it on the New Wave along with a rather plain sirloin. My wife even commented that the duck was far better than the steak. Thanks so much for the technique.
How are these infection cases investigated? Through analysis of the domestic Commercial food supply chain at various check-points within that network. Simply look at what has been identified from multiple incidents within Chipotle's network. Have definitive conclusions regarding the avenue of infection been identified to date? No.
What happens in cases where no definitive evidence is evident?
Where would CDC or Public Health investigators go to work-up documentation for an evidence based assessment of a suspect incident involving consumption of wild game, given the system that exists in the U.S?
Does the average hunter eat wild game exclusively? If you assume a three meal a day food intake interval,how many meals over the course of a month are wild game for a hunting family? How many of these meals are consumed in or from commercial facilities? How many of these meals are derived from the domestic food supply network?
In Germany as well as other countries in Europe, wild game consumption is far more common among the population than it is in the U.S., sold through commercial outlets. Note where most of these data were derived.
As I initially stated, my cautionary statement was offered as a point of consideration.
Todd, I fully realize, based on the body of evidence accumulated in many threads on this website, that you firmly hold that yours is the definitive perspective on all subjects! Noted! I am just not a subscriber. Over time I have been conditioned by experience to identify Type-II error.
What happens in cases where no definitive evidence is evident?
Where would CDC or Public Health investigators go to work-up documentation for an evidence based assessment of a suspect incident involving consumption of wild game, given the system that exists in the U.S?
Does the average hunter eat wild game exclusively? If you assume a three meal a day food intake interval,how many meals over the course of a month are wild game for a hunting family? How many of these meals are consumed in or from commercial facilities? How many of these meals are derived from the domestic food supply network?
In Germany as well as other countries in Europe, wild game consumption is far more common among the population than it is in the U.S., sold through commercial outlets. Note where most of these data were derived.
As I initially stated, my cautionary statement was offered as a point of consideration.
Todd, I fully realize, based on the body of evidence accumulated in many threads on this website, that you firmly hold that yours is the definitive perspective on all subjects! Noted! I am just not a subscriber. Over time I have been conditioned by experience to identify Type-II error.
Dwight Harley
Well-known member
I age my birds in the fridge for about a week before filleting the breasts......but I gut them shortly after shooting them and I rinse the cavity out with cold water before putting them in the fridge. It just seems nasty to leave the perforated entrails in them when it only takes a few minutes to gut and rinse.....but that's just me
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Cody Williams
Well-known member
I will usually age my birds by rough plucking the breast, making a small cut at the bottom of the breast bone, and cutting up both sides of the rib cage with a pair of game shears to the wing joints. I then break the wing and wishbone joints and lift the whole breast off, on the bone, in one piece-that way, any problems arising from punctured guts are moot. I then take the legs and gizzard, and put it all on a wire rack in the fridge covered with a dish towel. I will age them anywhere from 8 to 14 days like this and I've never had a problem, and it really helps mellow the ducky flavor of some birds immensely.
Michael B
Active member
This year I left 4 duck breasts (mallards, skinned and rinsed) in a zip lock bag in the refrigerator for about 5 days. When I opened the bag they smelled a little different so I tossed them, figuring it best to trust my nose.
For those of you that regularly age duck breasts in the refrigerator for this long or longer, is any change in odor normal?
Mike
For those of you that regularly age duck breasts in the refrigerator for this long or longer, is any change in odor normal?
Mike
A big change in odor is not normal, especially after 5 days under controlled conditions like a fridge. I don't often age ducks the way you did, but having said that, I have had many many cases where I wet aged ducks (or deer) as you did and would not expect a change in scent after a week or more. If they smelled like anything other than clean and meaty, something else was going on and you were right to throw it out.
Dwight Harley
Well-known member
I wouldn't let them age in a plastic bag. I put my birds in a brown paper bag in the fridge. It lets them air out and keeps blood from dripping on the rack. I leave them there for at least a week and have never had problems. I would also toss anything that didn't smell "clean and meaty", as Tod said
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