Anybody Here Hunt Manitoba? You Might Be Screwed.

[Eric Patterson]

If you do and aren't a resident of Canada, you may be locked out. The link below gives a ton of information, so I'll just hit the high points.

New regulations have been proposed that limit the number of licenses issued to foreign waterfowl hunters. The proposal is this, there will be 2900 foreign seven-day licenses sold for $175 each. Licensed outfitters get 1200. You can get your license from an outfitter if and only if you are using their services when hunting. In other words, you can't freelance if you bought your license from an outfitter. You must use their services. That 1200 represents the approximate number of foreign hunters that use outfitters over the past few years. In other words, they are not taking a cut in business.

Freelance foreigner waterfowl hunters can enter a draw for 1300 seven-day licenses. The recent average (pre-covid data) is about 2400 foreign waterfowl freelance hunters visit Manitoba so that equates to a reduction of about 1100 freelance foreigners. If you want to hunt longer than seven days you are out of luck.

The remaining 400 seven-day licenses appear to be earmarked for Delta and DU for their use and historical clubs.

Manitoba Regulatory Consultation Portal (gov.mb.ca)

I uncovered this recent proposal as I research a place to continue my waterfowl hunting career in the coming retirement years. I thought perhaps I could rent a place for about a month and enjoy some of the best waterfowl hunting North America has. Looks like Manitoba is off the list now. Seven days isn't long enough if I'm lucky enough to get drawn. I'm really looking for a place I can set up a base camp and stay for an extended period of time annually.

Places with quality hunting that allow unrestricted freelance hunting are going extinct. The above clearly benefits local residents, outfitters, and Delta and DU big wigs. Nobody is looking out for the little guy that doesn't need a guide to hunt. The guy that just wants to experience quality waterfowling, and might I add in the very same areas preserved with money he has donated most of his entire adult life.

You know South Dakota all but gave non-residents the boot years ago with a very restrictive draw system. ND now limits non-residents to 14 days. Manitoba is about to eliminate 45% of foreigner freelancing, while giving Delta, DU, and "old money" clubs 16% of the licenses. The average duck hunter isn't being taken care of with all these restrictions when you consider the most basic need for a hunter is a place to go, not by the gov and not by our flagship conservation organizations. These are sad times to be a waterfowler. Not for a lack of ducks, but lack of access resulting from restrictions aimed to benefit some while locking out others.


Eric

 

[Jeff Reardon]

That sounds like a lousy system. I don't begrudge the Delta and DU allocations, as long as there is a requirement that the funds raised with those permits are used to support work that benefits ducks in Manitoba. But the allocation of permits to commercial outfitters does bother me. It's sad to see this approach, which has mostly been restricted to big game tags, coming to the waterfowl world.

I'm afraid the combination of growing populations (and therefore hunters), combined with increasing privatization of hunting opportunities, may make this inevitable. So much for the public trust doctrine that has made North American one of the few highly developed places in the world where the average person can hunt and fish for the species that used to be reserved for royalty and their guests.

Very glad I live in Maine, with a robust tradition of access to both "great ponds" and tidal waters to "fish, fowl, and navigate". But even here I see an increasing number of gated enclaves in the North Maine Woods country that has been known for mostly unfettered access over private logging roads. My rights to waterfowl and striped bass access are pretty well protected in law, but for big game and freshwater fishing the next generation may see a lot less access than I have.

 

[tod osier]

Yep, that is part of the trend, sadly. Increased fees and decreased access. Big part of decreased access is outfitter (welfare) and resident priority.

 

[Eric Patterson]

Jeff

If you dig into the link I posted you see the stated crux of the problem is land is being leased and thereby prevents access by locals and outfitters. Yet it states that leasing is going on by all three groups (foreigners, outfitters, locals). No indication is made as to the proportion made by each group. Further, if you look at the graphs you can see the number of resident hunters went on a decline for many years but has stabilized over the past decade. You know there are more forces in play for that decline than they discuss. Does anyone really think cutting 1100 foreigners will restore the loss in resident hunters suffered between 1972 and 2002? Foreigners are a fraction of the total hunters and has been nearly constant. Yet the solution is to whack freelance foreigners by 45%. They even state they are after "A sustainable, balanced approach to managing competition for land access to waterfowl hunting areas." Just how the hell is cutting 45% from one group, while giving a pass to Delta/DU and outfitters balanced?

If Delta and DU do not push for a more equitable solution they have been BOUGHT.

Eric

 

[Eric Patterson]

Yep, that is part of the trend, sadly. Increased fees and decreased access.

Seems quite short-sided. When you take away hunters' ability to explore, discover, fail and succeed, and reduce them to a "sport" with some expendable income who comes to shoot a duck you have removed all depth. That lack of depth doesn't result in lifelong waterfowlers with passion and dedication to the sport and conservation.

Eric

 

[tod osier]

Jeff

If you dig into the link I posted you see the stated crux of the problem is land is being leased and thereby prevents access by locals and outfitters. Yet it states that leasing is going on by all three groups (foreigners, outfitters, locals). No indication is made as to the proportion made by each group. Further, if you look at the graphs you can see the number of resident hunters went on a decline for many years but has stabilized over the past decade. You know there are more forces in play for that decline than they discuss. Does anyone really think cutting 1100 foreigners will restore the loss in resident hunters suffered between 1972 and 2002? Foreigners are a fraction of the total hunters and has been nearly constant. Yet the solution is to whack freelance foreigners by 45%. They even state they are after "A sustainable, balanced approach to managing competition for land access to waterfowl hunting areas." Just how the hell is cutting 45% from one group, while giving a pass to Delta/DU and outfitters balanced?

If Delta and DU do not push for a more equitable solution they have been BOUGHT.

Eric

In big-game hunting this is very common. The outfitters are always involved and they guarantee access for their clients, but limit nonresidents in general. In Alaska outfitters pushed for nonresidents to need a guide to hunt sheep, goats and brown bears. In Wyoming you can't hunt big game in a wilderness without a guide (or resident guide). There is always a complex rationale, but in the end the outfitters benefit, with little benefit to the actual residents of the state and nonresidents are severely restricted.

 

[tod osier]

Yep, that is part of the trend, sadly. Increased fees and decreased access.

Seems quite short-sided. When you take away hunters' ability to explore, discover, fail and succeed, and reduce them to a "sport" with some expendable income who comes to shoot a duck you have removed all depth. That lack of depth doesn't result in lifelong waterfowlers with passion and dedication to the sport and conservation.

Eric

When people are looking to line their pockets, that is almost always short sighted. Everyone is looking for their piece of the pie. The corporations with their prostaff blowing up your local duck haven on social media to sell some gizmos or the outfitters who want a guaranteed stream of clients by limiting your opportunity.

You are thinking the right things right now, IMO. Now is the time to plan.

The great unwashed has disposable income (or credit) like never before and access to knowledge like never before. Social media is fanning the flames.

 

[Eric Patterson]

Tod

We are on the same wavelength.

Eric

 

[Mark W]

Used to waterfowl hunt in South Dakota all the time until the lottery came into play. Imagine owning land with a nice slough and being unable to hunt it. So not only does it hurt non resident land owners, those who own that land and can?t hunt it do not allow residents to hunt it either. Lose lose for all involved.

Look into Ne tasks Eric. Lots of good hunting along the Missouri river and it is still available to freelancers for the most part.

Mark

 

[Eric Patterson]

Used to waterfowl hunt in South Dakota all the time until the lottery came into play. Imagine owning land with a nice slough and being unable to hunt it. So not only does it hurt non resident land owners, those who own that land and can?t hunt it do not allow residents to hunt it either. Lose lose for all involved.

Look into Ne tasks Eric. Lots of good hunting along the Missouri river and it is still available to freelancers for the most part.

Mark

Yep. It hurts small business owners too. Hotels, restaurants, ammo suppliers, etc. Non-residents bring in money that otherwise would never find its way to a lot of communities. Appreciate the NE suggestion. I'll look into it.

Eric

 

[Vince Pagliaroli]

The issue of freelance and guides has been going on for as long as I can recall. During the 80's and 90's we would spend weeks at a time if not a month in Manitoba and Sask. A major influx of $$$$$$$$$ from hunters that the residents really were happy for, and we had many friends welcome us each year. For a waterfowler is was like going home, to the best home there could be in North America.

Waterfowlers from all over the world would be there, most without guides. Each week there were Hunters Banquets the communities would have to thank all the hunters. Farmers would seek out hunters to help solve their waterfowl problems, and we were glad to help.

As far as DU and Delta. Without Canada and those organizations all waterfowl hunters south would be in deep do do.

It all comes down to $$$$$$$$$, so it shall resolve itself.


my 2 cents

 

[Michael McCord]

Seems like a ploy by the outfitters to not only guarantee themselves clients but also to reduce competition for ground

 

[Jeff Reardon]

There was a time when a handful of duck outfitters tried to monopolize access to Merrymeeting Bay here in Maine. The intertidal zone here has public access from old laws that date to early Colonial days, but the outfitters attempted to appropriate it by constructing private blinds at the best locations and preventing others from hunting them. The dispute played out in the Maine legislature over several years, but they were eventually defeated by a special law that does not allow any permanent blinds within the confines of Merrymeeting Bay. If you want to hunt there, the intertidal is open to all, as is much of the shoreline, which is has been acquired by the state or by local land trusts who allow public access and hunting. The best spots are still hunted most days, but it's the early bird who gets to hunt them, and they either do it from a boat blind or some temporary blind they can carry or put up with natural materials.

Those rules were put in place long ago, at a time when a lot more of the general public was interested in getting a few ducks, and so stood up to the efforts to keep them out. I'm not sure there is enough public engagement with hunting that the same would happen today.

 

[Eric Patterson]

Jeff

I can relate to your area's rules. We have the TVA flood plain that is largely open to the public and treated as first-come-first-serve with few rules. Recently they stopped allowing permanent duck blinds after a boat smacked one too close to a nav channel and injured the boat occupants. In typical fashion they eliminated all blinds in the name of "navigation hazards" in spite of many of them being in water too shallow to run a boat or on islands. If a boat hit one of those blinds they were already in a world of hurt.

Our WMAs are on land the state leases from TVA and they implement many rules and the regs are always changing and getting longer. You have to stay on top of it to be in compliance. I'm appreciative of the opportunities we have, but also feel at times we are becoming cattle being herded. I've been a freelancer for 40 seasons and in the early years was gifted with incredible freedom to explore, discover, and figure out ways to be successful. In the last ten or so years things really started changing making it harder to be a freelancer. Access and days removed on WMAs and the crowding those rules create, and loss of suitable habitat in the floodplain backwaters, among other things. Hunting enjoyment to me revolves around the freedom to pursue ducks as needed. I'm not talking about laws aimed to protect the resource, bag limits, hours, no-tox, etc., I'm talking rules/regs that manage and corral hunters and eliminate opportunity. Those are sucking the life out of me, and yet they are more pervasive than ever as places like Manitoba seek to lock out hunters that fall in certain categories. But that is just the latest of a long line and we are nowhere near the end.

Eric

 

[Jeff Reardon]

I hear you, and I agree. Some of the few places I don't Maine in Maine are USFWS National Wildlife Refuges. They've protected some spectacular waterfowl habitat, which I greatly appreciate, and I spend a lot of time fishing in them for stripers. But they tend to have some unit-specific rules on hunting, and I just don't want the hassle of trying to figure out exactly what those are, especially if I'm going to be going there in the dark without local knowledge. Sounds like you have a lot more of those frustrations to deal with than I do.


FWIW, I think the rules Maine has in place on Merrymeeting--which are pretty simple and have not changed for decades--serve us well. The key measures are:

(1) A small but important "sanctuary" within which no hunts are allowed.
(2) No permanent blinds, but no other restrictions on where you can hunt or what you can carry or scrounge for a temporary blind.
(3) Motors allowed only within marked navigational channels. Outside the channel, some areas allow motors but headway speed only; others require you to pull the motor.
(4) No duck decoys can be left out overnight. Strangely, you can leave goose decoys out overnight--not sure why.


That works pretty well to provide equitable access for everyone who wants to hunt what is almost certainly the most crowded duck hunting spot in the state. For the rest of the state, on the coast, there are thousands of miles of coastline and huge expanses of salt marsh to hunt where no such rules are required, and where we see some permanent blinds but it's not an issue. Likewise, we have 6,000 inland lakes and ponds and thousands of miles of rivers and streams. That keeps us pretty spread out and there's no need for any special rules. Inland, most of the places I see permanent blinds are on lake front on people's own property, but there are some on state and town-owned land, too.

It makes Maine a great spot for us free lancers, but other than the sea ducks, we just don't have the duck numbers to be a major draw for folks from other states. Among my duck hunting friends, full multi-species limits are pretty rare except in the early season when we still have lots of teal and woodducks around the ducks are still pretty dumb. I'm approaching old fart status and tend to value solitude and lack of hassles over duck numbers, so I avoid the crowded spots and usually have wherever I am hunting to myself. I'll do a few hunts a year down in Merrymeeting Bay, and some of my late season coastal hunts can involved a bunch of other boats at the boat launch at 5 am, but any conflicts are usually resolved by whomever shows up second asking the guy ahead of him where (generally) he's planning to hunt, and going some place else. They guys who show up late will find us spread out among the better spots and have to go exploring. I've found some of my favorite spots that way.

If Maine was more crowded, I'd probably give up duck hunting and chase woodcock and partridge more. There, a little shoe leather gets me away from the guys who won't walk more than 200 yards from the truck.

I see more crowding issues in my freshwater fishing, but it's a small handful of well-known spots that get hammered. For some of those spots, I think we'd be better off with some kind of limited and managed access to create a better experience for the angler.--though I'm sure I'll complain as much as anybody when someone implements one. But it's not much fun having to watch your backcast because someone might be walking behind you, or jockeying with some stranger on the other side of the river over who's going to cast to which rising trout. I've quit fishing those spots except for weekdays with lousy weather when the crowds are down, and I spend more time on hike-in ponds. Even 1/4 mile walk from a good gravel logging road puts me on good trout ponds where it's rare to see another angler all day. A mile or more virtually guarantees solitude, even on well known lakes. The walk also pretty much everyone to row or paddle craft, or float tubes and rafts. It's surprising how much less crowded a 20 or 30-acre pond is with 4 or 5 canoes on it vs. 4 or 5 motorboats.

And I hate anything that eliminates opportunity for non-residents, or that gives outfitters special access that others can't have. Sad that we are seeing more and more of this.

 

[Vince Pagliaroli]

From personal experience. When war was declared on Snow Geese, and hunters with trailers of decoys, flood lights, etc. and many hunters began to show up in the Dakota's and Prairie Provinces the non resident issue really hit the fan. Most declared not being "guides with clients" as for the most part that was not allowed. Fights began to happen over fields, permission etc. All taking place during harvest time, when the farmers were working 24/7 to get the crop in during a very small time frame. Many times we would help farmers with whatever they requested us to do to help.

The welcome of the 80's & 90's began to sour and by 2004, and later things really took a turn for the worse. Crossing the boarder you would see so many waterfowlers with huge trailers of equipment. Way past what most consider "freelancing", it appeared to be a invasion. How could one not think there would be a negative reaction?

Now keep in mind these are the same farmers that lose thousands of dollars from waterfowl crop damage and also have many of the wetlands and sloughs on their property that support waterfowl.


The industry of Waterfowling for some, and not others became a real issue. How to strike a balance? That appears to be what the states and the provinces are trying to deal with. Blue Collar Freelancing hunting for all game is becoming a thing of the past. With less hunters and older hunters each year it will not get better anytime soon.


One piece of advice that I'll offer. Do Not Wait until retirement to do what you like & love to do. A tough choice and one you will have to live with.

Waterfowlers have always had to jump through hoops of regulations, laws. etc. Easier to do when younger, and the feeling of having more time. The feeling of "wasting time over BS" goes out the window when your older. Other types of hunting and fishing with less BS become very rewarding. Plus there's always Pickle Ball and Golf, Gawd Forbid....

 

[Eric Patterson]

Vince

I hear what you are saying and agree with A LOT of it and appreciate your words. Do look at the very charts MB put in their data packet for the proposal. There hasn't been an invasion of US hunters in MB. The numbers are pretty level going back to 1972, maybe even longer. The huge drop has been in residents. Why restrict foreign hunters when the total number of hunters has dropped dramatically? Look at the harvest. The drop for the resident's percent of the harvest correlates with their drop in numbers. The more I look at the data the more I think this mainly benefits the outfitters. They'll control a huge chunk of the licenses giving them more power to increase their fees. If this rule happens the guides stand to profit, DU and Delta get a free pass, and me and you have our hunting greatly curtailed. They said they were after a balance approach. This is ANYTHING BUT balanced, and given the total drop in hunter numbers is it really needed? Are we to believe the current numbers are harder on the resource than the numbers 40 years ago? As they stated, leasing lands is the root of the issue, not hunter numbers based on the evidence they provide. I don't blame a farmer 1% if he chooses to lease his land. He has every right to do that. If that makes freelancing trips problematic, I could accept. Why aren't they taking steps for that instead of locking out hunters and cutting your time there to seven days? Take dang near any state on the Southern US and land is leased to waterfowlers. It doesn't stop people from going like removing the ability to buy a license does.

As for retirement and life choices. I chose to raise a family and take a career that pays the bills with some leftover for myself, which is now used so my kids won't be strapped with 30 years of college debt. No regrets at all. I saw my father retire at 57 and live an incredibly full life for almost 30 years until my mother lost her leg from bone cancer. He now takes care of her which limits his activities but not many people get the years to do whatever they like as he did. I've always thought he got the big decisions in life right and balanced everything as good as can be done. I hope to replicate it.

Eric

 

[Vince Pagliaroli]

Eric,

Once I went to Sask I did not return to Manitoba. There was no need to. Having hunted many times in each province, seldom did we ever encounter residents of that particular province hunting waterfowl. The few that we did encounter did not have licenses, nor use non toxic shot. Do not know if that is the norm, just what we encountered. So I put little faith in data of how many resident hunters. The data for non Canadian residents is much more credible to me.

I have read that some provinces are considering not allowing US residents to own, purchase land, homes, camps in Canada. Leasing I have no idea. Many folks here in western NY have homes and camps in Canada.

As for the number of days allowed to hunt they just following what ND & SD has done for a very longtime. That was a major issue when many USA hunters went to Canada. The fact that they could hunt much longer, or even all season if they wanted. As long as they abided by all the rules, laws and were willing to be checked on a regular basis. If not you were gone ASAP, and do not come back ever.


If you count the large bags for White geese, the hunters of today are taking a much larger toll (it's not just white geese that die in those mega shoots). Plus until 1995 non residents were not allowed to shoot Sandhill Cranes. Also the diving duck limits are high. Very seldom did we ever see others hunting any divers, Cans, Redheads, Scaup... Folks went to certain areas in Canada for that gunning. That is no longer the case. Most folks always wanted Mallards and Canada Geese. The hunters of today seem more inclined to full limits everyday (when hunting far away) than those hunters of the past. Plus better boats, guns, shells, tech knowledge, etc. So yes I do believe that the birds are under much more pressure with fewer hunters.

The balanced approach they could be striving for is keeping the birds there longer with less Blasting.

Unless things have changed, you had better take all yer ammo into Canada, and pay the price. You will not find large amounts or even small amounts of ammo if you wait to buy it there. Large Limits = Lots of Shooting. Everything else you need for your stay you can get there.

Once we cross over into another country, especially these days with firearms things are much different than they used to be. There's much more friction for a host of reasons valid and invalid. Everything has become political not practical, nor reasonable. Throw Covid on top of that, and oh what a mess.




As for retirement we all choose our own path.

 

[SJ Fairbank]

I have read that some provinces are considering not allowing US residents to own, purchase land, homes, camps in Canada.

I have relatives in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, this sentiment has been rising for years. They believe that the "rich Americans" are driving up land prices, grabbing the best land, and limiting access because they come to the closing armed with "No Hunting" signs. I would suggest this is a major driver behind the proposed regs Eric cited.

 

[Vince Pagliaroli]

Some may think I'm a old duck & goose hunter full of $hit. Be that what it may.

I waterfowl hunted in Canada from 1970, until 2004, Ontario, Manitoba & SASK. Many days and weeks not a a few days of gunning.

This photo (name misspelled) shows when waterfowlers, farmers and towns folks ALL got along for the common Good. I will not tell how long I was there cuz most won't believe it.

There was a equal "playing field" of respect and appreciation for each other. No fighting, and the only animosity was with those farmers losing thousands of dollars each day to waterfowl upon their crops. When you approached them to ask permission to hunt, you damn well better not have a DU or Delta hat on your head, or ya had lots of explaining to do, hat in hand.


The Canadian DU projects provide by mistake, better waterfowl hunting than anywhere & anything in the USA on purpose. Are they easy? NO. Will you and your dogs and gear suffer YES! Big time ya gotta pay to play, or whine and go the F home.


Please realize that waterfowlers are OLDER. White goose hunting, we would set 500 to 1,200 decoys and rags. TRY doing that after age 60 for days and days at a time. Good luck! Therefore the necessity of "Guides" is understood. It's called planning for the future of the waterfowling INDUSRTY. Duh.


Back in the day many hunters came from everywhere, some only to PASS SHOOT for a few hours, get some birds and be happy. That boat don't float in todays meat eater, whack em, robo duck, whack em, and stackem killem at all cost BS. Way to much focus on killing lots of waterfowl. Post a photo and be a "great hunter". Total self centered and selfish Bull $hit!!! But I digress...

Am I a old cranky waterfowl hunter? Ya bet yer arse I am. Resource first.

At the time of this photo I had lost everything in the material world for the 4th time (two more times to go) I had. The focus on waterfowling was primal and primary, or else I was toast.

If ya stay true to yerself, at times it hurts like hell but is worth the price.