Black Duck bag limit

Paul Meisenheimer

Paul Meisenheimer

Well-known member
I know a retired waterfowl biologist and during a recent discussion about Canvasback and Redhead bag limits I asked a related question about the current Ontario daily bag limit of one American Black Duck. I thought I would post my question and his answer here and see what kind of response it gets. I will also ask this group the additional question: given the minimal impact of hunters on the Ontario population of the American Black Duck is the current bag limit of one justified?


question: I often wonder about the effectiveness of the 1 bird limit for black ducks. So many birds harvested are showing signs of being blackXmallard hybrids that I also wonder about the long term prospects. I really don't know much about the issue and simply am curious. Any thoughts?

answer: I have lots of thoughts on the effectiveness of the 1 Black Duck limit in southern ON, which was brought in to reduce harvest of Black Ducks in an attempt to stop their continued decline. As it happens, I spent a fair amount of my research career studying the relation between Mallards and Black Ducks ( you can see a list of published papers here: http://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=ankney%2C+black+ducks&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2001&as_sdtp=on )

In summary, here's what this research showed:
1) M's and BD's are extremely close genetically -- BD's are more similar to M's than are some M populations to other M populations;

2) M males are dominant to BD males and if courted by a male M and a male BD, a female BD almost always ends of choosing the M;

3)M's outcompete BD's for nesting areas and as a result M's have replaced BD's on all all but the least fertile, least productive habitats in ON and PQ;

4) Hybridization with M's and "competitive exclusion" by M's has caused the long-term decline of BD's in Canada and harvest has had nothing to do with the decline.

Since my research was done, M's have spread farther east and have now displaced BD's from the most productive areas of NB, e.g., St. John's River valley and have moved in to NF and are increasing there.

Bottom line is that the 1 BD limit has done NOTHING to stop the decline of BD's because it's M's, not harvest, that are causing the decline. Your Grandkids will be just as thrilled to shoot a Black Duck in ON 50 years from now as your Grandfather was to shoot a Mallard in ON 50 years ago.



 
There are many waterfowl regulations (worldwide) that I don't understand and a few that I completely disagree with....that said......the law is the law.

The canvasback limit in the states was one a few years ago and the biologists admitted their base number population counts were flawed.

Two geese in Ohio.......give me a break
Geese are like 10 pound pigeons in Ohio.....they are everywhere.
They nest in parking lot tree islands.
They cover elementary school soccer fields with crap.
Two geese per day is a joke
 
Interesting. If the mallard/black hybridization problem has now spread to NB and Labrador, I wonder why is there still a higher black duck limit there? I believe in NB the limit is 4/day.

The hybridization, and how hybrids are treated in bag limits, is interesting. On my last hunting day last year we set up in a coastal spot that was where the ducks wanted to be, and we had dozens of blacks and mallards in groups of 2-12 in and out of our decoys all afternoon. Unfortunately, we were also looking straight into the sun, so discriminating between a black and a mallard on the wing (or in some cases even after they'd landed in the decoys) was near impossible. In situations like that, we have a one duck per hunter rule with the folks I hunt with to avoid going over limit on blacks. We got lucky on the first several passes, and each of the folks in our party shot either a mallard or an obvious hybrid as our first duck. This left us "safe" to fire as subsequent groups came in. Eventually, each of us also shot birds that were either "clearly" black ducks, or were close enough to the line we were not comfortable counting them as hybrids, so we spent that last couple of hours of the season watching teeming birds, many of which were undoubtedly mallards or hybrids, and feeling unable to fire at them. (Life could be worse, I suppose. It was a nice south-facing shoreline, and a whole lot warmer than anyplace else on the bay.) At the end of the afternoon, we each had a pair of birds--one "black" and one hybrid or mallard.

When we got back to the launch, we got checked by a pair of wardens--one veteran and a trainee. The veteran took our pile of birds to teach hybrid ID to the trainee, and much to our surprise, he identified all but one of our "blacks" as hybrids, and told us we should have kept shooting.
 
interesting read. We have quite a good bunch of black ducks on the east coat but our mallard population is not all that exciting when compared to areas that don't have the black ducks.
 
Here, on our salt meadows, it's Black Duck country, Mallards fly in sporadically from the mainland creeks where they live in peoples back yards.
It can be a LONG wait to see them.
Frustrating to be covered in Blacks, and you can just watch. As for hybrids, I can honestly say our Black Ducks LOOK like Black Ducks. Rarely you'll see one with a hint of green in the head. How you would determine a hybrid on the wing is beyond me.
 
Jeff,

The Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) takes the lead on setting national regulations etc. and sets regional quotas (bag limits) based on input from regional stakeholders. Sections 4 and 5 in the following link detail the process.

http://www.ec.gc.ca/rcom-mbhr/Default.asp?lang=En&n=/rcom-mbhr/Default.asp?lang=En&n=56286E6C-9

It is possible to get a daily bag limit changed if you petition the CWS, answer the questions in section 6 and the review is favorable. Right now they are reviewing the limits for Redheads and Canvasbacks at the request of the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH). Any changes would not be in effect until next year (fall 2011).

The reason I asked the question about Black Ducks is that there is substantial evidence that the reduced bag limit does not help the population sustain itself in the face of "competitive exclusion". It is interesting to note that the Ontario open season for American Black Ducks also closes several weeks before all other species of ducks and geese. This eliminates the harvest of the birds late in the season when they are most concentrated in the remaining open water and fields. On the other hand, killing substantially more Black Ducks is obviously not going to help the situation.
 
The blacks I shoot here in CT (coast) are pretty clean. Growing up in the fingerlakes region of NY (inland) I shot a lot of hybrids.
 
There are many waterfowl regulations (worldwide) that I don't understand and a few that I completely disagree with....that said......the law is the law.

Two geese per day is a joke
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I was once told that there are no ducks in Ohio. Maybe this is in place to ensure the goose population doesn't go the same way. LOL
 
dont go there,,, friggan mallards are ruining the black ducks here to in nova scotia,,, i will pass on the black ducks in the flock and blast them mallards every time....ive shot hybreds and some nucular blacks with disspoportional head sizes....almost the size of a small goose... the blacks are in trouble no doubt about it..evolution is the problem survival of the fittest...

farm ducks are what i call the mallards as they are stupid compared to the blackies,,,,where if anything moves or shines they are not coming near you..cripes just your thundering of your feet as you walk across the marsh there 1/4 mile ahead of you flying away...

as for regs here we were reduced from 6 blackies to 4.... awhile back..ive asked for no limit on mallards but it always fall on deaf ears ......

ive submitted changes every year... this year they have changed regs here some good some bad..

for our area we have not had any studies done to my knowledge on any waterfowl species since the eider was studied in the 70`s,,yet they make changes...for instance we are to have an early goose cull season to start on the 7 to the 17 then on the 18 have the youth waterfowl day,,boy i bet they wont get many

but what bothers me is this goose season was to cull the flocks and flocks of maruarding geese,,,well ive been cruising around where are they???

the other thing is its a field hunt only no water hunting...so i check all the fields only thing they can actualy land in are lawns and pastures as almost all fields are with fall corn 6 ft tall....

i told you not to get me started....lol

but i must admit there trying harder then before by asking the hunters.....


shermie..

to effect change open your big mouth and be heard....
 
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Crazy?

Here in CT we've been told by our state Waterfowl Biologist that the reduction in the Canadian black duck harvest may result in our (Atlantic Flyway) having a reduced season on black ducks even though the counts don't indicate a need to reduce the harvest. The reason is the international agreement splitting the harvest of black ducks evenly +/-5% (from memory it may be +/-10%). The Canadian harvest is trending downward. If it drops below the threshold our bag must be reduced. So my Canadian friends please shoot the blacks your entitled to and think about inviting a buddy to come out east or even cross the border and help keep the scales even.

Scott
 
Come on up! I will show you where to find them. Late November / early December is best. At one a day you might need to stay a while to influence the harvest numbers.
 
I will say that in my local area that I hunt here in north coastal NJ about 10 years ago you had to beat the black ducks off with a stick and were lucky if you got a few mallards a season when the weather got real cold and nasty.

Now we still see black ducks, but not nearly in the numbers as before and see a ton more mallards. Of course this is just in one small area of NJ and when I go to hunt down near tuckerton and brigantine the black ducks are like flies.

Just an impression from what I have been seeing.
 
That was really interesting, Paul. Especially when you mentioned the grandpa taking a mallard 50 years ago verses taking a black duck today. Seems to me that New Zealand has a similar problem. Thanks for that thread.
Al
 
There are many waterfowl regulations (worldwide) that I don't understand and a few that I completely disagree with....that said......the law is the law.

Two geese per day is a joke
Click to expand...


I was once told that there are no ducks in Ohio. Maybe this is in place to ensure the goose population doesn't go the same way. LOL
Click to expand...

LOL

There are no ducks in Ohio because we are not in a flyway.

You could kill 10 geese per day in Ohio and not even put a dent in the population.
 
This is a great thread. I too live and hunt in NJ, but on the Delaware Bay marshes. Black ducks greatly outnumber all other big ducks 4 or 5 to 1 (I'm not counting GWT in that). So I feel your pain. I have killed a few hybrids over the years, and they are more prevalent then they were 20 years ago, but most of the blackies we shoot are pure. There is nothing better looking in this area than a husky red leg. Mallards are a bonus for us,we get some, but usually no more than 10% of the season totals. But I will tell you that blackies are not my favorite duck to eat in these parts, they eat a lot of shellfish here in the winter. When I used to hunt fresh water, the black ducks tasted better. There is rarely a day hunting I couldn't shoot a black, but with all of the stuff I've read over the years and seeing as when I started hunting in the late 70's there were definitely more of them around, I often pass them up. But I'm not so sure after reading this that it makes a difference.
 
I am no longer an Atlantic Flyway guy so I haven't followed the nuances of black duck management in the last 20 years, but I can tell you that black duck management has been the subject of discussions between the US and Canada for 50+ years. The competing hypotheses are many, but include competition and genetic swamping by mallards, changes in disease dynamics, habitat alteration and many other factors. There is little doubt that things are changing and that mallards are increasing. The US portion of the Atlantic Flyway has liberal mallard regulations in an attempt to maximize mallard harvest. There are ongoing discussions about the role of harvest in black duck population dynamics. I'll try to maintain professional distance here but there seems to be a problem to the east of Paul and to the west of Shermie in Canada. Segments of the US range appear to be doing different things.

AP geese and residents..... I am going to leave that to the experts. I moved away from the AF in 1992 and know better than to wade in with a history lesson since so much has changed now.
 
Does anybody have a reference on the habitat issues? If I were looking for a smoking gun as to why populations have shifted away from blacks and towards mallards, habitat change would be my prime hypothesis. From what I see, mallards (like rats, feral pigs, whitetail deer, coyotes, raccoons and a bunch of other critters) seem to tolerate living next to humans very well. Black ducks not so much.

What habitat features favor blacks over mallards? I am definitely wading close to the edge of the deep end of my understanding here, but wasn't habitat change (reforestation in the east) key to recovery of wood duck populations?

Here in Maine, we see mostly blacks with some mallards mixed in early in the season and through about Thanksgiving. Late in the season, we start to see a lot of hybrids mixed in with the blacks along the coast. I presume that's because they are migrating towards open water on the ocean as lakes and ponds and swamps north and inland of us freeze.
 
The following is an abstract of an article published in The Journal of Wildlife Management © 1987 Allen Press.

I have highlighted one answer to your question in bold.

Abstract
Hunter-kill data for each degree block in Ontario and Quebec for the years 1974-85 were analyzed to see how the number of American black duck (Anas rubripes) × mallard (A. platyrhynchos) hybrids in an area was related to the relative abundance of mallards and black ducks. We also related breeding-ground survey data about changes in numbers of breeding mallards and black ducks, from 1971 to 1985 in Ontario, to those about hybrid incidence in the hunter-kill data. A multiple regression showed that when black duck or mallard numbers were held constant, there was a positive correlation (P < 0.01) between numbers of the other species and hybrid numbers. Between 1971 and 1985, the ratio of black ducks: mallards breeding in Ontario declined from about 1:2 to about 1:6 (P < 0.001); the decline was greatest in areas that had the highest numbers of hybrids relative to the number of black ducks (P < 0.001). We conclude that neither overhunting nor loss of breeding habitat explains this decline, particularly as mallard numbers have shown a compensatory increase. Rather, we suggest that increased mallards in an area cause a decline in black ducks through introgressive hybridization and/or competitive exclusion.

I read elsewhere that the clearing of timber and development of southern Ontario and Quebec has also resulted in the destruction of much of the prime breeding habitat. There is also concern over the destruction of wintering habitat on the east coast.
 
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