I have started carving Barnegat bay style decoys, my friend who taught me to carve connects his head with woodglue and a wooden dowel, I have many books on carving that i have been reading through and most of them say to attach the head to the body with a galvanized screw, i have done decoys with a wooden dowel but am wondering how much eaier/ stronger it would be to attach them with a screw. Just wondering how all you guys prefer to do it.
Cedar decoy Carvers..Attaching the head?
- Thread starter Jay H
- Start date
Chris Toy
Active member
Dowels are fine, but I usually use screws. I prefer Brass to galvanized. Even though they are coated, galvanized are still steel screws and will likely deteriorate much quicker than brass. I like the screws because they pull the joint together and act as a clamp for gluing. (just don't over tighten and squeeze all the glue out of your joint.)
My method is to rough carve the body and the head seperately, then I attach the head to the decoy with hot glue and shape the neck and breast to get the transition the way I want it. After the decoy is pretty close to the final shape I break the two halves of the decoy apart with the head still attached and drill a hole up through the top half of the decoy into the neck. I then remove the head, and hollow the two halves of the decoy. I use marine epoxy thickened with microballoons to glue back together. Reposition the head and run the screw in to hold it tight. Once everything is dry sand the joints smooth and move on to sealing and painting.
My method is to rough carve the body and the head seperately, then I attach the head to the decoy with hot glue and shape the neck and breast to get the transition the way I want it. After the decoy is pretty close to the final shape I break the two halves of the decoy apart with the head still attached and drill a hole up through the top half of the decoy into the neck. I then remove the head, and hollow the two halves of the decoy. I use marine epoxy thickened with microballoons to glue back together. Reposition the head and run the screw in to hold it tight. Once everything is dry sand the joints smooth and move on to sealing and painting.
Steve Froelich
Active member
Have done both, but now its amost always a screw. I got a deal on some stainless deck screws. But always with epoxy, not glue. I rarely have a joint (furniture grade) that I want to use wood glue. I have also screwed as many from the top as bottom. When I go from the top, I fill in the hole with thickened epoxy. By the way, I first prewet the joint and hole with thin epoxy for maximum penitration. All these boat builders know what I am talking about. The final joint and hole epoxy is thickened with wood flour and silica.
Steve,
Are you putting screws in keels thru the cork?
Have found that on occasion, once that seal was broken, water would eventually wick its merry way up the threads and fill voids.
Eons ago, all i used on Wiley was contact between keel and body---head received contact and screw/washer--Object was to cinch head to the body, and to make sure the screw went past the neck, if there was one..
That handle was the easy pick-up tool, but often resulted in loosening the joint, or an occasional snap, if the screw was a mite short--I use gorilla in the winter, cause the boss doesn't let me use contact in the house--only drawback is the weighting/clamping issue with keels.. Heads are never a problem. This afternoon, i had a daisy chain occur when one deke decided to release the brick i put on the keel- all four decided to heel over and drop their weights.--Wife thought i had done something really bad, due to a plethora of invectives!
hehhehe
Are you putting screws in keels thru the cork?
Have found that on occasion, once that seal was broken, water would eventually wick its merry way up the threads and fill voids.
Eons ago, all i used on Wiley was contact between keel and body---head received contact and screw/washer--Object was to cinch head to the body, and to make sure the screw went past the neck, if there was one..
That handle was the easy pick-up tool, but often resulted in loosening the joint, or an occasional snap, if the screw was a mite short--I use gorilla in the winter, cause the boss doesn't let me use contact in the house--only drawback is the weighting/clamping issue with keels.. Heads are never a problem. This afternoon, i had a daisy chain occur when one deke decided to release the brick i put on the keel- all four decided to heel over and drop their weights.--Wife thought i had done something really bad, due to a plethora of invectives!
hehhehe
Steve Froelich
Active member
George, you are a far more masterful and prolific carver of decoys than I. I have wondered however about the long term holding power of cork and epoxy. Unlike the wood where the epoxy soaks in to the fibers, the cork is already fairly dense with an epoxy. I used to just use the wood flour but Terry Desillets told me about the silica and the resultant stronger bond. With all that in mind, I'll at least describe my thought process. (Basic theory is every thing coated in lots of epoxy)
I do worry about water wicking as you described. For this reason, I pay extra attention to running thin epoxy up an down the screws and in the hole. I am most happy knowing that each turn of the screw,more epoxy oozes out. On Cork I've only drilled from the bottom for the heads with a goal of getting the screw in about 1-1/2" to 2" into the head. Every thing is predrilled so there is lots of room for the epoxy. I use a forster bit to make a hole in the bottom so I can fit a washer as you described earlier. I then fill that hole with Cork dust and Epoxy.
For the keel, I use 4" deck screws and I again pre drill the hole from the bottom so I can feed some of the thin epoxy down the hole. I also run the screw in and out a few times to ensure the epoxy grabs the screw all along the way. After assembly its in the cork about 2-1/2". Its not likely to give way any time soon. I also set the keel in a bed of epoxy mixed with the Wood Flour and Silica. (I think about the old timers using white lead for keel bedding) Because epoxy abhors a starved joint, I never clamp. Just a couple of turns with the screw. Now that I think of it, its kind of like a cross between a screw and a threaded metal dowel.
The epoxy I use doesn't smell too bad; to me. I use the West or System 3 slow cure epoxy. I've had dekes sitting on the kitchen table overnight on newspaper and don't know that anyone commented on smell, but doesn't keep me from getting "the look" from the misses for taking over the kitchen. I have never used Gorilla Glue for Dekes. I am kinda like pigpen when it comes to gorilla glue. I love it, but I never keep it from getting everywhere.
Sorry to hear about the drop. Hunting in small water like I do, there will never be more than a few ounces attached to my dekes.
Take Care
I do worry about water wicking as you described. For this reason, I pay extra attention to running thin epoxy up an down the screws and in the hole. I am most happy knowing that each turn of the screw,more epoxy oozes out. On Cork I've only drilled from the bottom for the heads with a goal of getting the screw in about 1-1/2" to 2" into the head. Every thing is predrilled so there is lots of room for the epoxy. I use a forster bit to make a hole in the bottom so I can fit a washer as you described earlier. I then fill that hole with Cork dust and Epoxy.
For the keel, I use 4" deck screws and I again pre drill the hole from the bottom so I can feed some of the thin epoxy down the hole. I also run the screw in and out a few times to ensure the epoxy grabs the screw all along the way. After assembly its in the cork about 2-1/2". Its not likely to give way any time soon. I also set the keel in a bed of epoxy mixed with the Wood Flour and Silica. (I think about the old timers using white lead for keel bedding) Because epoxy abhors a starved joint, I never clamp. Just a couple of turns with the screw. Now that I think of it, its kind of like a cross between a screw and a threaded metal dowel.
The epoxy I use doesn't smell too bad; to me. I use the West or System 3 slow cure epoxy. I've had dekes sitting on the kitchen table overnight on newspaper and don't know that anyone commented on smell, but doesn't keep me from getting "the look" from the misses for taking over the kitchen. I have never used Gorilla Glue for Dekes. I am kinda like pigpen when it comes to gorilla glue. I love it, but I never keep it from getting everywhere.
Sorry to hear about the drop. Hunting in small water like I do, there will never be more than a few ounces attached to my dekes.
Take Care
Steve,
I trust this stuff will hold--The only problem i ever had-and, it wasn't really MY problem, was when a customer's buddy tossed a deke while inadvertently standing on the weight end of the line---Newton's laws to hold, and the keel and deke separated--the glue bond held, however, and cork was torn from the bottom of the deke. Truth be known, i really never felt like the screw in the keel was ever a benefit, but did it due to that error. I stopped after Wiley left the business--one season of wicking made me crazy, and over the years, have had virtually no problem with gluing to the bottom. Mike uses west, and swears by it, but i have not had problems with either contact or gorilla--Yeah, we share the same thoughts on gorilla, but i think it is just a matter of figuring out how much, or little, to apply.
I trust this stuff will hold--The only problem i ever had-and, it wasn't really MY problem, was when a customer's buddy tossed a deke while inadvertently standing on the weight end of the line---Newton's laws to hold, and the keel and deke separated--the glue bond held, however, and cork was torn from the bottom of the deke. Truth be known, i really never felt like the screw in the keel was ever a benefit, but did it due to that error. I stopped after Wiley left the business--one season of wicking made me crazy, and over the years, have had virtually no problem with gluing to the bottom. Mike uses west, and swears by it, but i have not had problems with either contact or gorilla--Yeah, we share the same thoughts on gorilla, but i think it is just a matter of figuring out how much, or little, to apply.
Chris Toy
Active member
Here is a link that shows test results from some different types of joinery. It is not an exact comparison to what you are doing on a duck decoy, but I believe the data seems fairly relevant.
http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/index.html
http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/index.html