Digging up serious tree stumps and roots? Somewhat, kind of NDR.

CAnderson

CAnderson

Well-known member
I submitted my application to the Township today for Zoning Approval on my workshop. The workshop will someday be used for building furniture and cabinetry as well duck decoys and perhaps a duck boat. Therefore, this is kind of, somewhat duck related.

I had three quotes for the concrete work. The slab will be 21' x 49' as the workshop is slated to be 20' x 48'. The first guy game me a real good deal price. Way too good to believe. The second guy hit me with a number I was anticipating but double the first guy. Both of the initial quotes were for a monolithic slab, 4" thick slab with an 8" thickened edge approximately 12" wide around the perimeter of the slab. I live in NJ so we do deal with frost cycles. I am uncomfortable with the idea of a monolithic pour of this size. The third guy got down to business and said he would not do a monolithic pour of this size because he could not guarantee the work and believed that it would fail in the future. His plan was to do a traditional, footer, block foundation and concrete slab in three steps. This makes me much more comfortable. His price was on the money with guy #2.

Ok, now for the actual meat and reason for this post. There were previously 3 maybe 4 large oak trees in the yard. Two of them lie directly in the line where the footers will be poured. The trees were Live Oak trees standing approximately 65' tall and had a trunk diameter in the 3-4' range. Guy #3 wants the stumps/root balls and roots completely gone. He gave me a daily price to have a backhoe operator run a machine to remove the stumps. He willingly admits that he is not experienced in this area and could not tell me how many days it would take an operator to remove the stumps. He is also not willing to guarantee that they can even be removed.

I know absolutely nothing about removing stumps from trees this large. My experience is limited to trees and shrubs that I can dig up and tie to the bumper of my truck or SUV, and drag them out. Somehow I suspect that this will be above the capabilities of my current SUV.

Can anyone give me an idea of what is involved with stumps this large? What is the best angle of attack? Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

Chad A
 
Stumps that large will be needed to have a back hoe or track hoe to take them out. By having them where the building is going to go i would really make sure they are out and removed because if you just ground the stumps they roots will decay and could cause some sinking and settling of the concrete. I think it would take a day or two at the most for any operator to remove 3 or 4 trees. The root system on these trees will be fairly large it isn't uncommon that they are as wide as the tree was tall.
 
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Chad, I had to remove an 28" cherry for building of my shop. My neighbor is a good hoe operator. We dropped the tree but he wanted a good 5-6 foot section of the trunk left intact for leverage. Cherry is not a deep rooted as oak. It took him a good 3 hours to remove the entire trunk and root ball, back fill and do an initial machine tamp. On oaks that big it could take considerable longer I might think. Maybe two days and a lot of dirt to fill the hole.


I guess it depends how big the machine is and how good the operator is.
 
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Call a few excavators and get a few prices. Ask about the set up for your footings and slab. You will have alot of top soil left over, find a place to store it. We usually put in tamped sand as a base also. Try to figure out expansion joints before hand [shop walls].
 
Chad, check with your township. Monolithic pours are generally not legal for code. As far as the stumps, what is buried in your yard; sewer, water, gas, electric???? be careful who you hire rich had an operator flee after taking out an electrical service.
 
Wes, Jode, Rich-

Thanks for the input. I am somewhat tempted to remove on my own. I have some experience with a backhoe and skidsteers. It has been awhile and as Jode specifically mentions, a lot can come down to the skill of the operator. I don't know how long it would take to get back into the groove of running the machine. I will, however, get some rental prices to see if I should even consider it. I or whoever does the removal has to have a definite set of expectations from the concrete guy so they are on the same page as to what he expects to have left behind when the stumps are gone.

Shawn-

To my surprise the Township allows for a monolithic pour. It scares me. Personally I am glad that guy #3 is comparable in price to guy #2 and I can get a real foundation for the same price. That will make me sleep much better at night. Especially if the stumps and roots are completely removed. As far as utilities. . .there is nothing to be concerned with in the rear corner of the yard. The utilities come down the left side of my house and then follow the rear wall of the house. I will call the special call before you dig number before committing to any digging though. I need them marked for future projects anyway.

I am going to make some calls to see what it would cost to rent a backhoe to compare it against the daily operator cost from the concrete guy.

I am not hopeful that the township will even approve the permit. I have verbal approval from them, a copy of all of the codes and ordinances that guide the structure and I meet all of the requirements. For some reason, I am expecting them to say no. Perhaps that is just because I live in NJ and expect them to say no to everything I want to do. As you may understand, I am not the typical Jersey guy (being a transplant and all).

Chad A
 
Chad~

Congratulations on your new shop!

These issues both sound familiar.......

SLAB ~ My shop is 20' x 40' on a monolithic pour - what my guys call an Alaskan Slab (because they cannot get below frost in Alaska). Thicknesses sound similar BUT there was lots of steel in it. There was 6x6 mesh across the whole thing, 3 runs of 1/2" rebar through the thickened edge and a grid of rebar (4' O. C.?). It was approved by the building inspector - in fact, he required the 3rd run of rebar around the edge.

Most important, I had lots of gravel hauled in for the base so it would drain well (and I sit on "excessively well-drained" soils). The base settled all winter before the concrete work started.

There were no expansion joints.

BTW: My foundation was the same dimensions as the structure - not sure why you want to go larger - I'd be afraid of helping moisture find its way underneath my walls.

Also, my finished floor is wood (2x10 pine) on 2x4 sleepers with 1-1/2" closed-cell foam insulation board between the sleepers. I put my vapor barrier on top of the concrete (and so beneath the sleepers).


STUMPS ~ My neighbor dug my stumps out last spring with his backhoe. I think it took him a few hours (less than a day) to get 3 big (36"+) Black Cherry stumps as well as some smaller Sugar Maple and White Ash. Some were too heavy to move with my tractor - which can lift 1900 pounds - but he could haul them with his hoe to a spot where I dump my brush. As always, I was impressed with his skill - at times the hoe would have a purchase under a stump and be suspended mid-air on just a single "leg".

In your case, I would want to make sure the holes were backfilled with a sand or gravel that would settle well.

All the best,

SJS
 
Steve- Perhaps my two biggest hesitations with the slab are; 1.) The concrete guys were not planning for any re-bar in the slab or thickened perimeter edge. They were only planning to use a 6x6 wire mesh turned down into the edge; and 2.) There were no plans to remove or permanently deal with the roots along and underneath the slab. The plan was to merely remove as much as necessary and leave the remainder in place. I believe they would have to decay over time and leave a void in the ground which would only cause problems later on.

The reason I was planning to make the slab a foot wider and longer was to allow for a 6" lip around the edge to allow for wiggle room to ensure the building eas square but I have been questioning that for the very reason you mention. I am concerned that water running down the face of the building will sit on that 6" lip and slowly work it's way back into the building under the base plate. Perhaps I need to give that more thought.

Chad A
 
The reason I was planning to make the slab a foot wider and longer was to allow for a 6" lip around the edge to allow for wiggle room to ensure the building eas square but I have been questioning that for the very reason you mention. I am concerned that water running down the face of the building will sit on that 6" lip and slowly work it's way back into the building under the base plate. Perhaps I need to give that more thought.
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There is absolutely no reason the concrete guys can't guarantee a level, square and on size foundation for your building. That after all is what you are paying for.
That said, a 6 inch lip will make it easier to mow along side the building. If you want the lip but not the water intrusion, you could consider a single row or even two of concrete block (tied into the slab with rods) as part of the foundation and the wood is built up from there. No different that a home sitting on the top of a basement wall.
 
Good morning, Chad~

Any good concrete guys should be able to make it dead square - just by measuring the diagonals (hypoteni?) on their forms. Mine did excellent work AND got it dead flat. (I know this because, once the walls were up, we got lots of rain before I could enclose the roof. The water proved that the floor was within 1/4" of level.

One thing I did not do - but would "next time": run a roll of 6" aluminum flashing around the base to cover the joint between the walls and the foundation - i.e., over the sheathing but beneath the tyvek and siding. It would preclude any insects or mammals from gnawing their way in. I weed wack around the perimeter and see no problems after 6 years - but wished I had made it bullet proof.

BTW: I had thought about doing the concrete myself, but - I was ~55 at the time and could not round up enough helpers among my friends with sound backs, etc.......

SJS
 
As Steve mentioned wire and rebar is a must. Really needed at all overhead doors and aprons. Footings are a must here and must go down 3'. Your bearing walls take all the weight. Elevation should be higher in case of heavy rains or snows. If you are parking your car in there, snow may melt from the car and puddle there.
 
The finished slab will be 8" above grade. At least three-quarters, but likely all of the building will be surrounded by landscaping beds with mulch and stone.

For cost considerations and the sake of matching my main home, the building will be covered in vinyl siding. Not my favorite by any means, but aesthetically it blends into the "landscape". If I decide to keep the 6" lip of concrete I could easily incorporate an aluminum drip edge that would project any water running down the exterior face. As my mind churns, the slab will likely end up being the same dimensions as the structure.

Chad A
 
I got a couple bits of information today regarding digging the stumps out. The concrete guy will dig the stumps at $850/day but doesn't know how long it will take to do the work. The local United Rentals will rent a Case 580 backhoe for $370/day plus $320 for delivery and recovery of the machine. If I figure it was one days worth of work, it would cost me roughly $700 plus tax and fuel to run the machine for a day. The bigger savings starts to occur if I need to run it for more than one day. A two day rental would be $1060 plus tax and fuel vs $1700 for two days with an operator.

I plan to contact an excavator tomorrow to see if they would be interested in the job.

Chad A
 
You are a bit out of range for me. I run a stump grinding business and grind up large stumps all the time. Normally I just grind them down 6 inches below the surface so that the grinding mulch can be removed, loam filled in and lawn grown. 4 stumps 50 inches in diameter would only cost you $400 if you were in my area to grind up to the 6 inch depth. How deep do trees typically root in your yard? Grinding deeper would cost more but you get the idea.


I would not try to pull 4 foot stumps with a case 580. For stumps of that size I want an excavator and a big one.
 
Chad, David has a point if the stumps are not in the direct path of your footers do you really need to remove more than the top half of the stump your footers are going to bear the weigh of the structure the slab only has to bear the weight of your projects.
 
Unfortunately two of the stumps lie directly on the line of the footers. One on the front face of the building and one on the rear face of the building. Both are the load bearing sides of the structure as well.

There are a couple of other stumps in the yard that I need to deal with too. Those will be handled by a stump grinder. A foot below the surface for those will be fine.

Haven't had a chance to make calls to other excavators yet.

Chad A.
 
Hi Chad,
I thought I might add a few thoughts to the other great posts above that you may also wish to consider before going forward with your excavation work.
IME, every state and municipality has differing building requirement language regarding the construction of varying types of accessory structures for private or residential use based on square footage, occupancy, etc, etc. You haven't mentioned if your proposed shop will require a structural building permit and a set of submitted plans for building dept. review in addition to mechanical, electrical permits etc. If you have to pull permits than the governing building code language where you live will predicate and guide you on what you have to do removing tree roots or other organic materials, consolidating and re-compacting soils where necessary and the type of slab on grade or foundation you will have to build to support the load bearing requirements of your shop.
Your local building dept. should be able to help guide you through this process before you build and what they will be looking for at time of inspection.
General building code requirements state that foundations/footings shall be placed on native or undisturbed soils no less than 12" below grade in many locales, deeper in others based on that particular locations average frost depth. Slab on grade requirements also vary widely based on soil conditions, weather and local building practice.
I'm assuming your intention is to construct a 20x40 single level shop, presumably with heat and possibly running water?
From a structural standpoint and without any familiarity of your state or local municipalities building requirements, the load bearing and (if any) seismic anchoring requirements of your proposed structure, may dictate the type of footing and foundation requirements you will need to put in place for a permanent structure. If you are conditioning the air within the structure, insulation under the slab adjacent to the foundation and against the block wall may also be required.
I'm not personally aware of any jurisdiction that doesn't have some form of code language addressing the the removal of organic materials from the footing/pour area. Depending on how much soil is disturbed and to what depth you go removing roots, there may also be a possibility of compacting back in aggregate to achieve a base that will accept the compressive strength necessary to support the structure.
Its a little dificult to offer thoughts from abroad because your local building dept. is essentially the last word in what will or won't be required to do given the proposed scope of work and the conditions where you live.
JMHO and i hope its helpful,

Bob
 
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