E-Collar Help

C

CJ Tort

Active member
I think I can probably answer my own question, however I need a little re-assurance. I have a 4 month old lab, who I am training to waterfowl hunt. I trained my older dog (5yoa) myself as well, however did not start him with an e-collar until around 2 yoa. I am confident that the younger dog is understanding the sit, heel, come commands, however I want to get him started on the e-collar sooner than the older dog. I needed a little feed back on when is the most effective time to start with the collar conditioning. I was going to give it another two months or so, when he really understands the commands then introduce the collar. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

CJ
 
I started Bailey around 6 months. At first I worked only on the "here" drill as that is the command that she was really starting to ignore. I HIGHLY recommend that you start putting the collar on now though. Even turned off, just so he doesn't get "collar wise" too quickly. Bailey behaves both ways, but her responses are much sharper when the collar is on. Congrats on the new pup and have fun!!!

Scott
 
Many pro trainers introduce the collar at about 6 months. Age is not so much an issue as where you are in obedience training. If the pup is usuallly compliant on sit, here, and heel, then it is a good time to introduce the collar on these commands.
 
Just a quick side note about E-collars-- don't leave them on the dog all the time. Probably something you already knew, but I have had 2 cases where the collars were left on all the time and the electrodes caused some pressure necrosis through the skin into the underlying subcutaneous tissue. Nothing terribly serious in either case, but something easily avoided. Good luck with the pup, Alex.
 
The other posters give good advice. I would also consider picking up a video to use as a refresher on collar conditioning. I like the Fowl Dog series. Fowl Dogs 1 would be a good start. It is relatively cheap and will take you through formalizing basic obedience (Fowl Dogs 2 is advanced obedience, Fowl Dogs 3 is transition training). Good luck with the pup.
-James
 
http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/pointing/pdj01.html

Jim Dobbs has a great site and several books on training with the e collar. The way he approaches works by teaching the dog how to turn off a very low level of stimulation. The dog ends up training himself instead of fearing he collar or the handler.
Timing with an e collar is critical. I've used his methods with labs and currently with my Wired Hair Griffon.
Really an excellent read.

Best of luck with the pup!
 
Guys, thank you for the advise. I am definately going to wait a few months to start conditioning. I like the suggestion about starting to put the collar on the pup now. My older dog definately knows when the collar is on and when it is off, hopefully that can be avoided this time around!!
 
I use a pinch collar for the first few training sessions. It helps the acclimate to some discomfort on their neck. I then put the e-collar on along with the pinch and give them time to get used to it. I would also say that alot depends on your dogs attitude when you first start out as well. Naturally, bolder dogs are going to respond differently than timid ones.
 
CJ,

I'm not sure if you are following a training program that includes the e-collar as part of it. The two that seem to be the most popular are Mike Lardy's and Evan Graham's. I'm using Evan's which is called Smartwork and have really had great success and enjoyment with it (my dog is 18 mos). Also, Evan participates in many dog forums and happily answers posted questions and those sent by PM. It is a huge help for those times when you get stuck in training.

If you want to get a feel for the program, here is a clip from one of his videos:


Collar Conditioning to Here


As you will see, he starts using the collar at around 4 months. Full collar conditioning of other commands comes at around 6 months depending on your progress.


Best of luck

Ed
 
Take a look at that clip around the 4 min area when he burns the dog and the other guy stopping it from going to him.
I like this one better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO7zJpCsKQc

That dog doesn't know what to do next, between the shock collar, heeling stick, pinch chain and then stepping on it's foot. It's a wonder the dam thing even walked. But then when you watch it towards the end the dog is crouched and in a panic.
Training a retriever is not rocket science it's about working as a team. Of course his website looks like it is set up like a personally injury lawyer with his pic in tux is a bonus. I just love the phone consultation pricing.
 
My recommendation was based on the entire program and my personal experience with Evan. The CC to Here part of the program is intense but effective. The one-time event, to me, was better than years of nagging, chasing, and verbal and physical correction.

Anyway, the OP asked about age for e-collar use. He can decide what if any program is for him.


Ed
 
Take a look at that clip around the 4 min area when he burns the dog and the other guy stopping it from going to him.[/quote]That’s an interesting observation, Mark. It would be more interesting, and of greater value if it were accurate, though. I’ll be only too happy to answer any questions – critical or otherwise about my system. I would like the facts to be straight, whether or not anyone may agree with them.

The two-rope system for CC to “Here” involves a rope directly from dog-to-handler. That one assures the pup comes when called. But, in order to keep the lesson clear, there are procedural steps involving another rope; that one running from the dog back behind him and around something that allows the rope to move smoothly (a pole in this case) to an assistant. The assistant’s job is not to “stop it (the dog) from going…”. It is only to keep the dog from going to the handler UNTIL COMMANDED.

The objective in the drill is to formalize the command “Here” by conditioning him to e-collar stimulus for this single command. To help the pup focus on it, no other commands are given during the drill. No commands like “Sit”, or “Stay”, for example are given because that eliminates side issues that would tend to cloud the lesson. There is more, of course. Feel free to ask.

I like this one better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO7zJpCsKQc

That dog doesn't know what to do next, between the shock collar, heeling stick, pinch chain and then stepping on it's foot. It's a wonder the dam thing even walked. But then when you watch it towards the end the dog is crouched and in a panic.
Training a retriever is not rocket science it's about working as a team. Of course his website looks like it is set up like a personally injury lawyer with his pic in tux is a bonus. I just love the phone consultation pricing.[/quote]Then perhaps you should call for one. At least that way you might end up knowing what you’re talking about, instead of inaccurately assailing a method you clearly do not understand. Or you may simply post up honest questions, which I’ll gladly answer.

Incidentally, it’s a white shirt and sport coat, not a tuxedo. Even a slightly closer look at my website will reveal that is about a detailed system of training to the highest levels. If you think it’s easy to make champions, I would be interested to know how many you’re trained? http://www.rushcreekpress.com/champions.html


Evan
 
OK How many dogs have you ever titled. I believe you only have a 4th place finish in your entire career.

A person who wants to train there dog would better served with the Lardy program dvd's and books, Voigt and a real bargan is the Fowldawgs. Of course these guys don't charge for phone support either. And the endless program if you can sell it more power to ya. Even if Stawski was a pro wrestler at one time he has a very good program that is straight and forward for the layman.

Then again I have nothing to sell.
 
CJ,

If you PM me your email addy I will send you an article I have on collar conditioning. I teach using the sit, heal, here, method. As young pups you teach these things using tricks and treats. When the dog is ready for more "Formal" training you use a lead, whip stick and pinch collar. As mentioned. you start out teach just one command at a time. Once they are all learned you can then mix the commands during a session. When dog is ready for the collar you then start the sit, here, heel drill all over again but this time you add in the e-collar. IMO it is easy to make the transition using this method since the e-collar correction will replace the "bite" of the pinch collar ( very similar). The dog will also be just expanding on a drill it already knows.

As for your question, most folks CC around 6 mths of age although more and more are doing it earlier. As mentioned, it is more a question of maturity then age. If you want to help avoid making the dog collar wise ( ie. they know when the collar is on or off) start putting the deactivated collar on the dog or a dummy collar whenever you would be putting the live collar on him. IE: when going for walks, training, etc. That way the dog gets used to the collar being on him with out associating it with any corrections. Most dogs do figure it out anyway but starting out using a dummy collar helps extend the time before they figure it out. If you CC correctly though the dog will look forward to putting the collar on as they associate it with fun times. My come running when I get the collars out.

I learned using the Lardy method but many amateurs will find his tapes a bit daunting. The tapes are very good and go step by step but I think they are aimed more at competition people so the average hunter may have a little trouble staying focused on it.

A word of advice if you use a video such as Lardy's or Evans. Watch the whole part dealing with CC first to see what steps they are doing to get from point a to z. But then..... go back and watch a few times the portion that deals with the steps where you are at now. Write down notes of the big points and then go back and watch that section again just before a session so it is fresh in your mind. DO the same for each new step as you advance.

Timing and handling the equipment I think is the hardest thing for most newbies. The timing of the correction is crucial for quick learning. You also must remain impassionate and level headed. If you are quick to lose your temper you are better off having someone else train the dog. Of course, if you lose it quickly, you may not be right to use a e-collar anyway.

good luck,

dave b
 
OK How many dogs have you ever titled. I believe you only have a 4th place finish in your entire career.

A person who wants to train there dog would better served with the Lardy program dvd's and books, Voigt and a real bargan is the Fowldawgs. Of course these guys don't charge for phone support either. And the endless program if you can sell it more power to ya. Even if Stawski was a pro wrestler at one time he has a very good program that is straight and forward for the layman.

Then again I have nothing to sell.
Click to expand...

Wow, I logged on to duckboats and ended up on RTF.

I think you are a little out of line with the personal attacks. Who cares if Evan charges for a phone consultation. It is how he makes a living and feeds his family. I wish I could charge my patients for the time I spend on the phone with them. Regardless, all of the programs you have mentioned are worth watching. I don't know the exact numbers but I would bet that Evan's and Lardy's programs are probably neck and neck in popularity and sales.

-James - Proud owner of 1 Junior Hunter
 
I don't think he was actually attacking Evan he was just stating the facts. Just because Evan is making a living selling something doesn't mean it's actually worth the paper it's printed on or the DVD's it's burned into. I think he was just trying to make a point that there are some good systems out there for training your retriever that were developed by competent professional retriever trainers and not button pushers. I have watched and read all of Evans books and videos and for the average guy I'd say don't bother. Go with the Fowl Dawgs videos or Chris Aikins video, I can't remember what it's called but I'm sure everyone can find it. Personally I'm a little biased since I'm friends with Rick Stawski.
 
"[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]I don't think he was actually attacking Evan he was just stating the facts. Just because Evan is making a living selling something doesn't mean it's actually worth the paper it's printed on or the DVD's it's burned into."

I think your full of crap. There are too many people out there who have had success with the program for you to make such a comment. In my first hand, regular-guy experience it is, if anything, too cheap for the value delivered.


Ed

[/font]
 
CJ,

Just buy the total retreiver training series by Mike Lardy. It's the same e-collar program that was perfected over the years and primarily developed by Rex Carr. Evan, Lardy, Rorem and several other noteables studied under Rex Carr and Lardy has a great presentation of this information that will help the hunter, hunt test participant and the field trial competitor. You may even find a used set of total retriever training on Retrievertraining.net I haven't seen any of the other Carr students materials so I'm not going to plug what I haven't viewed.


Ron
 
I don't think he was actually attacking Evan he was just stating the facts.
Click to expand...
Of course it's an attack, and is largely so because he isn't stating facts. He's stating opinion in a purposely derogatory manner. There are virtually no facts in his posts...either one so far. He has yet to ask a question, but rather has chosen to make accusations about my method and record, none of which is based in reality. Just because Evan is making a living selling something doesn't mean it's actually worth the paper it's printed on or the DVD's it's burned into.[/quote]No matter what a trainer may have been able to accomplish for him or herself, the value of an aspiring trainer buying a training system is in the results the buyer can get from it. Not that either of you has had sufficient integrity to ask, but my personal performance record has long been established, can be read here, along with a few testimonials from people who actually know my system, and have succeeded with it: http://www.rushcreekpress.com/testimonials.html . There is also a "Champions" page with other such results: http://www.rushcreekpress.com/champions.html . I think he was just trying to make a point that there are some good systems out there for training your retriever that were developed by competent professional retriever trainers and not button pushers. I have watched and read all of Evans books and videos and for the average guy I'd say don't bother. Go with the Fowl Dawgs videos or Chris Aikins video, I can't remember what it's called but I'm sure everyone can find it. Personally I'm a little biased since I'm friends with Rick Stawski.[/quote]Bias as well as ignorance don't really qualify your opinion is substantial, but you're certainly welcome to it. These discussion boards are all about opinion, and that's fine. But, when you continue to offer criticism, it would be worth a great deal more if it was supported by facts. Evan [/QUOTE]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top