E-Collar Help

I dont use E collers I think they are a abimination and I would never work my dog with a coller on it but in all fairness we train our dogs different over in the UK to what they do in the states and I think most of our trainers have different views towards the states when it comes to dog training and we dont tend to rush the situation but consentrate more on the OB side of it, lets face it, if you can not handle a dog at the side of you, you have got no chance 100 yards away, also a lot of guys think once the dog has been trained that is it, well Im sorry to say that you never stop training, until the dog leaves this world
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond
 
Interesting clips and information, Evan. Are you using the correction collar, e-collar, and heeling stick in combination/together? Is this confusing for a young dog or are they able to put it together? I like that you praise the pup and feel that is a huge part of both positive reinforcement and negative avoidance. I'll have to check out your site. Been training my 10 mos. old French brittany pup since she was 3 mos. Having fun and looking forward to getting into the woods with her this fall.


Regards,
Nate Grace
 
Nate,

Thanks for your questions. With regard to e-collar and heeling stick use, each is a tool; an implement of force or pressure. The words "force" and "pressure" don't imply an amount. But it's also important to consider that pressure/force may be used in more than one way. I say all this to make it clear that when an e-collar is used, it isn't necessarily a 'correction'. In this conditioning process it is used to compel a behavior.

Let me start by saying that training isn't one thing. It's a process, and it involves steps.
  1. Teach: (the first and most important) is the guiding of behavior & then rewarding it.
  2. Force: often the least understood, this step or phase is the formalizing of previously taught commands through the temporate application of pressure to compel a dog to perform a known act, even when significantly distracted.
  3. Reinforce: any structured activity, such as an exercise or drill, that upholds and/or supports previously established teaching.
Taking the example of e-collar conditioning to "Here", the pup was previously taught the command "Here" in as passive and clear a manner as possible first. Then we employed the e-collar conditioning process to help formalize it. The mistake I'm seeing in some assessments here is tying together CC to "Here", and formalizing "Sit" with the heeling stick. There is no e-collar use in formalizing "Sit". It's done with leash & heeling stick.

Later, when it's time to CC to sit-to-whistle, the stick will be tied with e-collar stimulus for two important reasons. First, the dog will already understand heeling stick support for "sit". Second, the e-collar conditioning is done to provide the trainer with a remote tool for handling at a distance, and with superior timing. It is highly recommended that the trainer use the most flexible e-collar they can afford in order to be maximally fair to the dog - not only in conditioning, but also in subsequent reinforcement in the field.

Evan
 
I don't think he was actually attacking Evan he was just stating the facts.
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Bias as well as ignorance don't really qualify your opinion is substantial, but you're certainly welcome to it. These discussion boards are all about opinion, and that's fine. But, when you continue to offer criticism, it would be worth a great deal more if it was supported by facts. Evan [/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]

Now I'm not usually one to post about stupid people or stupid things but when it gets personal toward me I will. I just want to clarify a few FACTS Evan;

So you've personally titled 1 FC-AFC in your training career ? How many videos and books have you written/produced ?


Seems to me the numbers should be the other way around. I've met alot of succesful trainers both Amature and Professional and the one thing all of them have had in common was the ability to reproduce that sucess with multiple dogs to an All-Age level; not qualifying or derby but AA.

Do you personally know me ?

How can you state someone is "ignorant" without talking with them or meeting them. I'm not stating I'm a genius but I can guarantee I'm far from ignorant and for you; a person that for whatever reason people think is a professional, to take a personal jab at someone you don't know because they state they are friends with someone only quantifies the FACT that you truely are Not A Professional.

FACT: I Stated "I have watched and read all of Evans books and videos"

I could offer you some constructive criticism but in the end I'm sure your not going to change any of your videos and your still going to take advantage of all your internet followers and continue to sell your products and profit from your so called "professional" status.

FACT: One reason why I've always liked and enjoyed all the people here at Duckboats.net was because there weren't guys on here pimping their products.

FACT: (This is for CJ) Ignore all this bickering and nit picking, pick A (one,singular, not two not three but one) training program and follow it. Don't mix and match from one or another but find a program that will work for YOU and follow it through, if you do and the program was developed well you'll end up with a competent, stylish working dog that will be happy to pick up your ducks and bring them back to you.
 
"[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]I don't think he was actually attacking Evan he was just stating the facts. Just because Evan is making a living selling something doesn't mean it's actually worth the paper it's printed on or the DVD's it's burned into."

I think your full of crap. There are too many people out there who have had success with the program for you to make such a comment. In my first hand, regular-guy experience it is, if anything, too cheap for the value delivered.


Ed

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Ed,

How many of Evan's videos or books have your purchased and what were the topics covered ? Just curious how much money you've invested ?

If you answer this I will be more than happy to quantify why I stated what I did earlier.
 
I own the Smartwork book and the 5 video "basics pack" covering the Puppy Program and Basics through Water Force and Swim-By.

Less than $175 invested.


Ed
 
Ed,

So could I assume you've got a young dog, under a year ?

Are you training this dog strictly for hunting purposes or are you going to be running it in either hunt tests or field trials ?

Have you seen any other dog training videos besides Evan Graham's ?

Sorry I should have asked these questions in the previous post but you'll see where I'm going with this very shortly.
 
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18 mos., working at our own pace. I had a mostly unsatisfying experience using Wolters program, with its rigid schedule, on my first dog about 15 years ago.

Not interested in tests or trials - strictly hunting. The guys I train with and many on RTF recommended SW based on my goals and, as stated, I've been very pleased... way more than $175 worth, if I had to quantify it. So, I took issue with your "not worth the paper" comment as it doesn't match my experience actually training a dog using the program.

The OP asked a question that indicated he was at a level similar to mine 18 mos ago, hence the recommendation. If he'd asked about trials, etc. I would have PM'd him and said to check with the crowd over at RTF. I'm sure the thread would have gone to hell there, too.

Ed
 
Bryan,

It’s becoming evident that you wouldn’t recognize a ‘fact’ if you saw it. I’ve already provided a link to my personal performance record as a trainer. Either you’re too lazy to read it, or perhaps only interested in continuing this baseless personal attack. In either case, your acquaintance with the “facts” is thoroughly flawed.

Neither your rationale, nor your ‘facts’ hold water in this discussion.

Your basic premise, to which it’s obvious you’re devoted, is fundamentally flawed. If you bothered to actually read my record, you’ve noted that I’ve handled several dogs to a number of all-age points, and that several of the dogs I trained went on to title in the field trial venue. My clients also had their own measure of success handling their own dogs. But many fine FT trainers, who have consistent performance records, are poor at training people. It isn’t at all axiomatic that FT titles provide anyone with the ability to train trainers effectively.

Many people were taught to be good duck callers by someone who never won a duck-calling contest – more so than not. Many people were taught to be good wing shots by someone who never won a trap or skeet shooting title – more so than not.

I titled one of the first AKC MH’s. That experience was valuable, as was putting over a dozen dogs on the Derby list, and making several dozen QAA over the years. But none of that is what makes me a good teacher. It’s good background. Better background was the years of training with Hall of Fame trainers like D.L. Walters and Rex Carr, along with countless upper echelon pro and amateur FT competitors. Still, that all only served to broaden my own base of experience and knowledge. Important? Sure, if you plan to teach someone how to do something, you need that baseline yourself. But it does not assure that you’ll be effective in explaining yourself, and in reaching the many different people who will read your text, and watch your video explanations.

Another flawed aspect of this attack is the basis that field trial success will provide an automatic connection to satisfying the needs of the great number of trainers whose desires are not competitive, but rather purely to have a sound and reliable gundog. There is little about that job that requires a dog to be able to perform water quads with three retired guns, or some of the circus style blind work required in trials. I agree with, and fully endorse field trials for their scope and purpose. But a terrific gundog, while needing the same type of solid foundation, surely does not need to be kept ‘trial-ready’ to do their job in the blind.

Lots of people muddy that water purely for the sake of argument. But the realities override the blather.

The final flaw in your assertions is that I’m here only to “hawk (my) wares”. I came to set straight a record, and personal character that was needlessly and baselessly attacked. At no time have I said to anyone here that they should run over to my site, or one of my distributor’s sites and buy something I sell.

Not only does my own performance record stand on its own, but the record of those many who follow my method. Endorsements, and titles dot my site, and I’m proud of all those good people. Most of all, I’m proud that so many have been able to take better trained gundogs to the field and marsh each year through following what I teach.

I’ve offered all the response I intend to about this. You’re welcome to make of it what you will, except lie. I will rebut each one told about me personally. Why you think this is necessary, I really don’t know.

Evan
 
Evan -
My respect for you has gone up considerably after reading your contributions here. Not that I disrespected you before, just that you have handled this insanity with tremendous grace and thorough explanation. Kudos to you.

Bryan -
I'm not sure where you are coming from on this . . . what's the point? Your tirade is quite out of character for the regular users on a day to day basis here.


**************

I'm not sure where Sutton would stand on this, and I've never really wished for his input before, but geez, I wish he'd throw his two cents in . . . I'm sure it would be memorable!

NR
 
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Evan,

So glad you danced around all of the topics I brought up in my last post but even so I'd be happy to address the topics you brought up.


" If you bothered to actually read my record, you’ve noted that I’ve handled several dogs to a number of all-age points, and that several of the dogs I trained went on to title in the field trial venue. My clients also had their own measure of success handling their own dogs. "


I Stated YOU, meaning you personally not the AA trainer the dog went on to title with. I know you laid the ground work for that title but YOU didn't title the dog the other trainer or Owner did.


"But many fine FT trainers, who have consistent performance records, are poor at training people. It isn’t at all axiomatic that FT titles provide anyone with the ability to train trainers effectively."

I never stated you weren't good at training people; obviously your very good at that other wise people wouldnt be buying your products but just because you have a following doesn't necessarily make your product worth what it's bought for.


"Many people were taught to be good duck callers by someone who never won a duck-calling contest – more so than not."

Ya but the truly great duck callers were almost all taught by one man, Butch Ritchenbach !

Another flawed aspect of this attack is the basis that field trial success will provide an automatic connection to satisfying the needs of the great number of trainers whose desires are not competitive, but rather purely to have a sound and reliable gundog. There is little about that job that requires a dog to be able to perform water quads with three retired guns, or some of the circus style blind work required in trials. I agree with, and fully endorse field trials for their scope and purpose. But a terrific gundog, while needing the same type of solid foundation, surely does not need to be kept ‘trial-ready’ to do their job in the blind.

Lots of people muddy that water purely for the sake of argument. But the realities override the blather.


The reality is, and this has been proven, you can take a FC-AFC and make them a hunting dog every day of the week but you can't take an HR, HRCH, MH or gundog and make them an FC-AFC !!!!

"The final flaw in your assertions is that I’m here only to “hawk (my) wares”"

Look at your AVATAR !
And lets be honest if you weren't here to "hawk your wares" you wouldn't be on the internet in every forum duck or dog related .

"I’ve offered all the response I intend to about this"

Some how I doubt this !
 
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Ed,

Just so I make sure I have everything correct here your dog is 18 months old and your intending, based on your purchases, to take your dog through Swim-By. So this would include obediance, FF, collar conditioning,single T, double T and Swim-By and the materials you purchased to teach you to do this training cost you approximately $175.00 and the only training materials you've seen have been the ones you purchased.

The only point I was trying to make was that there are other training materials out there that are made just as well if not better than Evan's and can be had for significantly less money for the average guy.

If you haven't seen any other training videos how can you know the success other people have had with those programs hasn't produced even greater results or that those programs aren't easier to understand or follow.

I would like to see the results of a side by side comparison with a cost benefit analysis of some of the other training progams compared to Evan's. If someone actually did this I would care to bet that the cost for Evan's program would be atleast twice what others charge and the benefits wouldn't be any greater than if they had used another program. This to me implies that for the "average guy" they would be better off using one of the other programs.
 
Bryan,

You seem to have issues with Evan and his program that are unrelated to the posts here. In particular, your focus on building FC-AFC champions is irrelevant to any of the earlier posts in this thread including the OP who asked about when to start using an e-collar. Nobody asked about a cost-benefit analysis and with dogs $175 is not significant.

In a search of RTF I found where you said or implied that you filmed part of Fowl Dogs (swim-by) and you admitted earlier here that you are friends with its creator. I guess that means you feel justified in knocking a program that many are using successfully to train dogs for whatever their goals may be. If anything, you've made Evan and SW look better in comparison.


Ed
 
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Bryan,

My posts never mentioned another program besides Lardy's (and that was in a positive manner). And the tone of your comments directed at Evan personally and the program was not a simple "cost-benefit" argument. In fact, where did you mention cost versus benefit before now???? All I've seen is an initial recommendation for Fowl Dogs and then attacks of Evan and his program ever since.


Ed
 
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I think I can probably answer my own question, however I need a little re-assurance. I have a 4 month old lab, who I am training to waterfowl hunt. I trained my older dog (5yoa) myself as well, however did not start him with an e-collar until around 2 yoa. I am confident that the younger dog is understanding the sit, heel, come commands, however I want to get him started on the e-collar sooner than the older dog. I needed a little feed back on when is the most effective time to start with the collar conditioning. I was going to give it another two months or so, when he really understands the commands then introduce the collar. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

CJ So, CJ, to answer your original question, opinions still vary on an approximate age to CC a young dog. Many leading trainers are routinely starting the process at around 4 months of age - at least to the command "Here". There is a simple process for it, but you need a flexible e-collar like the TT Pro 500, or a high end Dogtra. Sensitivity is far less an issue than in years past because of the great variability in these units. Evan
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I used the Lardy video with my first dog, however I can't find it now and I am trying to recall the basics. I do remember that it was a five or a six day process and each day was focused on a different command, sit, come, heel. I am going to have to find the video before I start so I dont mess it up. I had good success with it before, hopefully it will be successfull with the new pup. Thank you all for the help. Any advise is appreciated.

CJ
 
Well, my hope for you is that you find it, or that you can borrow a copy from someone, since you've already become familiar with it. It's a fine system, and I'm sure you'll do well.

Evan
 
Hey Nick,

If some one called you Ignorant you wouldn't have a response for them ?
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a) Nope. I have nothing to prove to anyone, much less online personalities.
b) Refusing to dignify their insult is much more satisfying.
 
Try reading Wolters book Water Dog,that was the bible before e-collars came out,training is REDUNDANCE! Practice,........Practice. Listen to what Evan is saying to you,its good advice and its free!! having dogs for 40 plus years including English Pointers(1978 National Champion Pheasant Futurity) english/irish setters,and a ton of great hunting labs I will say this to you Practice............Practice,choose the right program."don't blame the dog!Blame yourself! some dogs just don't have it,but 99.9% of the time its the trainors fault,myself included and I'm the first to admit it! A good trainor can make a good dog out of a half ass one,spend time and I mean time with him/her-take that dog every where with you and I mean everywhere!! To work if you can,fishing,walks,to the Crapper even!! build a BOND!! and devotion will prevail!!
Good Luck!!
Mitch
 
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