flattie decoys

U

uncle mike pierce

Active member
All you fans of flatties, I am looking for information and input.

December of 2012, I hunted with Steve McCullough, a duckboats member. He used two strings of flatties as a part of the decoy spread with layout boats. He placed the flatties nearest the landing zone/"kill" hole, noting that about 90% of the birds would decoy to the flatties. And he was right. A group of five of us limited out on bluebills that morning, in a few hours, and every group of bills seemed to swing to or try to land in the flatties.

Flatties seem counterintuitive to my experience with divers on the Mississippi River, where the idea was to use high (thick) decoys to show a very visible profile of white and black to low flying divers traversing up and down the channel. Looking out of the layout boat, I observed that his flatties moved more in the wind than the other decoys, swinging about on the slightest breeze. I also noticed that individual flatties moved out of unison from the others on the string, influenced by swirls of wind from other directions. The whole appearance was that the flatties he used looked a lot more like live ducks, swimming about, than the conventional decoys.

I did notice that on the second day of gunning, with a stronger wind, on the main lake, and more movement in all the decoys, the flatties pulled a lot of the birds, but it was more a 50-50 proposition.

His flatties were old, commercially made, molded strofoam, one piece, with an unweighted keel. They were not self righting. The good doctor told me that the company/person who made them was long out of business, that he wished he could buy more.

Based on my experience with his flatties, I wanted to make at least 18 to add to my diver rig. I felt that the light weight of his flatties were the game changer, enabling them to move in puffs of wind that moved the other decoys little. I also liked the idea that I could fit a couple dozen flatties into a storage bin that would only hold a dozen regular decoys, enabling me to put more decoys out without heaping up the boat more than it now is. In looking at Duckboats.net posts, I see heavier wooden flatties, with weighted keels, are part of member rigs, so I questioned if light weight of the flattie decoys is really a key componenet of their success. Lord knows, if I can make hollow, self righting flatties of cedar, I'd like to do that more than make simple foam bodies with foam heads. BUT, effectiveness is the key, so if light weight is important, foam it will be.

SO, I have the following questions for those of you who use flatties:
1. Is your experience the same as Steve's, that a large proportion of birds decoy to your flatties and do you use them as the strings close to your desired landing zone/kill hole?
2. Do you believe that lightweight is critical, or do you think the slim profile, imitating feeding/active divers is more important?
3. Or do flatties just add a different look to the spread, i.e., divers from a distance see the higher profile decoys, come to take a look and then see another group of ducks mixed in, lower profile, looking more like divers flattened out, actively feeding
4. Or were flatties originally just a way to add more decoys to the spread, using less materials, taking less room in the boat, and being quicker to make that gunners found effective?
5. Or, do you just use them and don't know/care why they work?

Thanks!

Mike
 
Mike

I've never hunted over a rig of flatties, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once...My thoughts...

4. Or were flatties originally just a way to add more decoys to the spread, using less materials, taking less room in the boat, and being quicker to make that gunners found effective
Click to expand...

I think this is how they came about in the first place. Like most decoys it was likely a usage of the materials someone had on hand.

Flatties seem counterintuitive to my experience with divers on the Mississippi River, where the idea was to use high (thick) decoys to show a very visible profile of white and black to low flying divers traversing up and down the channel.
Click to expand...

This was always my thought on flatties, I wondered why so many used them for divers. Following the same logic, they'd be great for high flying puddlers, I was always surprised to see so many made as divers.

A thought I had is you could make them of hollow cedar, but with out a bottom board. I remember 25ish years ago hunting over a rig of plastic geese that were an "aqua-vac" design or some such name, no weight, no keel, but a concave bottom that kind of sucked onto the surface. They wouldn't self right but would only rarely flip in the worst of wind and waves. That would allow you to work in a medium you like, save weight, and save the fitting of the bottom...just seal the inside of the cavity as you do the outside of the decoys.

Just some random thoughts from someone with absoluetly no experience with flatties...

Best
Chuck
 
simply put-the ducks are seeing stuff from above and behind. What the;y are seeing is the shape and basic color-B&W along with shapes, i assume. Probably, with divers, altitude doesn't matter, configuration does.
Interesting note-I floated a gang of susquehanna flats cans years ago when cans first reopened. Most of those old dekes floated low, which made them look kinda like flatties on the water-What we see in hand, versus what a duck sees from above and behind is probably quite different. With divers, apparently numbers are the key.
 
Could it just be that the birds decoyed best to the flatties because they were right next to the landing zone--where the birds were supposed to land in the first place?

I'm interested to hear from those who hunt over this style of decoys, but I think the key factors will always be (1) location and (2) numbers, in that order.

Mike
 
Interesting observations Mike. From my experience, I think the attitude of the decoy is very key in tolling success. Years ago I made 5 blue bills from black cork and very crude heads. They stood high above the water but none of them were the typical 'high head' that you see from commercial decoys - all were either snuggle head or sleepers. When I put them in the spread they were like magnets and decoyed most of the birds.

More recently......... ten years ago or so I made 18 cork cans with toledo heads. Many of those I modified the head to make it a snuggle head and a few were sleepers. Guess where the cans wanted to land, yep right with the sleepers. In fact I'd have cans land near the sleepers, swim up to them and go to sleep.

I know the 'high head', Winnebago style is popular in Wisconsin but I have never been a fan. When I used to travel to Milwaukee in the winter I'd take my lunch break down at the breakwater and photograph and study the Blue Bills in the harbor. The birds that were relaxed ALL had their heads snuggled down or were asleep. As soon as they got nervous their heads came up and the bulge of the breast flattened out.

I suspect that the attitude of the flatties you hunted over made the whole stool look relaxed and unconcerned.
 
I was always under the impression that Flatties came about, because if a Hunter lost, or had to abandon his rig, he didn't Loose All that much. Kinda like the outlaw decoys that guys used on the east coast. Location is everything as far as I'm concerned.......... Boils down to use what ya like, for your area & type of huntin'. Flatties work alot better than many "Must Self Right" conest decoys. Plus, ya don't have to put up with those pain in the butt keels. The more you study the old decoys, the more you can see how each maker tried to get around, and make keels less bulky, and bothersome.
From what I see, alot of todays keels are the result of Contests, and maybe not that much hunting utility. All this is just my personal opinion, and 2 cents worth.
 
If you watch divers when they are feeding, they force the air from their feather before diving to reduce their bouyancy. When they do this, they float a lot lower in the water, much like a flattie. Bunching flatties give the appearance of a group of foaraging birds surrounded by loafing birds.

Clint
 
I just bandsawed a couple out. It is basswood too, I could make some decorative flatties. Just kidding I don't make decoratives.
 
Over the years I have made my active(swmming/high heads) lower profile and my resters and loafers ride higher on the water. Now I have scientific evidence for it.

OP reminds me of my oldest niece, I carved her a redhead decoy and she painted it.That next year in ND she was on a hunt with us and her dad and I killed our limit of redheads. Almost all the birds tried to land or did land near her decoy, she was so proud and happy. I didn't tell her that the area her decoy was placed had more room for the ducks to land. I think that can be seen in what you saw as well, between the low profile feeding flatties and the openings for the landing spot are the reasons.

I have never been a beilever in bigger decoys to me realism is what counts. Granted these guys are in a sinkbox, but look at the spread, the decoys all ride low in the water, the numbers and placement of the decoy looks like something is going on. This is what is important to me when setting out the rig.

View attachment 1-doublesinkcirca1905.jpg
 
thanks for the photo and reply...........

I am never sure I understand what really is happening as I watch duck behavior in regards to decoys and calling. There is no way to set a control group for comparison and there are so many variables with each flock of birds that I only have the good advice and observations of fellow duck hunters to help me spot trends......... Even when it all works, I often wonder if the ducks came in inspite of what I did, or because of it.

When I can replicate patterns of ducks working and landing to a particular spread alignment, on a number of similar wind/weather days, by replicating decoy placement and calling, I assume it is good eveidence that I was doing something right in the calling and decoy placement. I feel good and confident I have the ducks dialed in, until I have the same type of day, and the old reliables just don't work..............

I guess that is why I love duck hunting and my wife so much, each day is a new excitement, and anything can happen............

Mike
 
if you want flattie styled birds that are light in weight why not do some canvas birds? I think that would give you a good spread of birds that would move nicely in light current and wind.
 
probably a great idea. I think I didn't think of it, and might resist canvas decoys because I don't know enough to do them quickly or well. I have a lot of experience with foam, cork, and wood, so I know I can do thsoe type of decoys quickly and I know what I am getting into with them.

Yesterday, I priced out 2" high density insulation styrene foam and figured I could make about 32 foam flatties with foam heads for less than a dollar apiece, using some glue and wood keel materials I already have, but skipping the eyes. And I could probably have them ready to paint with less than an hours worth of work per flattie.

I ahve seen some canvas decoys I greatly admire, but with canvas, it is a whole new learning curve for me, and I am not sure I want to take it on, this year...

But gosh, it is a great solution!

Mike
 
Well, as the Duckboat page's unofficial cheerleader for canvas decoys, I got to say I would not recomend this, especially for a first shot at a canvas deek. Besides getting saddled with emasculating names like seamstress, Nancy, and spinster, you'll take up hobbies like collectingn thimbles and bobbins, spend too much time and money at the fabric store, and instead of hosting a sit'n'spit it will be a stitch'n'bitch...but there are also real reasons I wouldn't recommend this....

Oddly enough, ducks are more difficult in my experience to do well than larger bodies like geese and swans. Though the larger deeks are more work by size, it is more forgiving with the larger curves to work the wires and canvas and make them look good. Smaller bodies are frustrating, and squatty bodies are frustrating too, combine the two on a first attempt, and it is more likely to become your last attempt. Then, when finished you will likely be disappointed that you really didn't save much weight, or you might find your deek even weighs more than if you just carved a solid body out of lightweight cedar. Your weight savings is all in the air void, and by making it squatty like a flattie, you are decreasing the air void. I tend to over build deeks (in Grant's words, I build them "like a brick, $@!# house"), but I wouldn't go less than 3/4" for the bottom board, nor less than 12 gauge for the wires. Last I checked metal was denser than wood, so for every ounce of wire you need a bigger air void in the canvas to balance that and result in what you will perceive as a "light deek" in hand.

Here are some examples of lower profile deeks I've built (none quite as low as a true flattie), all of which I would say are higher than average on the difficulty level:

decoys003.jpg


Another view, showing off the squattiness:

decoys006.jpg


A ruddy and GE...nekid!

RuddyandGE.jpg


Here is the GE with some brothers and sisters...I did 8 that winter, here are 6 of them:

IMG_20110315_185708.jpg



Also, Rick has one of my deeks in his collection if you want to get your mitts on one to see my techniques up close:

cackler009.jpg


And of course, when you are ready, I'm always willing to answer questions.

Best
Chuck
 
Neat thread.

I can honestly say that we have shot more birds over those pancakes than all the other decoys combined. Interesting thoughts.

For our style of hunting, we like them because you can put 2 dozen on a mother line, so bigger numbers. They go out QUICK as you saw, and they take A LOT of steel!! It really does seem counter intuitive because of the low profile, but they are very effective.

The plan for this year is to re-trestle coat them and repaint them. They need a revival!!

I sent a note to Rick, and I am able to do the painting class weekend of April 27th.

Best,
Steve
 
I been around a lot, but am unfamiliar with "trestle coating". What is it?

We could add painting 4 dozen flatties to the painting seminar when I am down in April :) Many hands make light work.

I remember one day when Rick and I repainted 5 dozen full sized Bluebill decoys in about three hours for a duck club work day, and when we were done, the owner remarked it was the best they had ever looked.
 
I am totally in awe of anyone who takes the time and concern to make great decoys like the canvas covered ones Chuck posted. My goodness, I am not careful enough or detail oriented enough to ever turn out craftmanship like that.

Someday, I will take you up on your offer to help me learn this skill. right now, I have to use the skills I already have and utilize my time effectively to make sure I am ready by next fall. So much to do, so much to do..........

I know, if I am really that booked, why am I pecking away at the keyboard?

Cause it is 20 degres in my workshop..........besdies, I am kind of getting hooked on this duck hunting site....

I ahve no fear of being called Betsy Ross if I take up canvas decoy making...... I'm already a ballroom dancer who was nicknamed "Shakira" by the Malarkey carving boys.......... Betsy Ross? Not a problem
 
Please excuse me I should have called him Levi Strauss instead of Besty Ross.

When I finally make some canvas birds they will be more of a flattie styled bird. No more than three inches tall but probably 8-9 inches wide. My good friend in NC makes his that way and does well over them.
 
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