Glue question for you boat biulders

P

Pat Richter

Active member
I am starting another another build , and would like to know your preference as to which you prefer . epoxy or wood glue such as tight bond 3 that i seem to favor . tell me if i,m using the wrong stuff thanks your opinion matters
 
I cann't think of any part of the boat where I would rather use glue over epoxy.

It's expensive, but a needed part of the boat. There is some quote, I believe from Eric P. that nobody ever wishes they would have used cheaper materials once the boat is finished.
 
If I was building a stip hulled boat like a canoe or kayak I would use TB 3 or plain TB when joining the cove and beads of the strips.

If I was building another Devlin I would stick to epoxy since I can readily mix that in very small batches and typically plan ahead to use the whole batch in several joints.

If was going to be laminating something with a bend in it that would eventually be wraped in FG and epoxy then I would use TB 3 for the laminating.

Many builders of the Hybrid mini boat use PL Premium and try to use it like thickened epoxy, but the results look ugly to say the least.
 
I'm with Ray, in SOME types of builds epoxy is overkill and quite unnecessary. In others you would definately be scacraficing the long term strength of the hull.

Chuck
 
So I have a question, what type of epoxy resin is it that you guys use, I thought I read somewhere that polyester is cheap in results, how do you determine what type to use.
 
I do not know what you want to use this glue for. Are you trying to tack something in place or bond it together. I prefer to use the new expanding glue like Gorilla glue. Epoxy does not require clamping pressure but needs a good working temp.. If you are trying to make a lamination, you would have to consider the stress it will take and possible exposure to moisture if there is a break in the epoxy encapsulation. Laminating white oak, surface penetration is a concern with epoxy. You may have to make some kind of test to see if what you want to glue will work. Epoxy will not pass the boil test for water proof glue.

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So I have a question, what type of epoxy resin is it that you guys use, I thought I read somewhere that polyester is cheap in results, how do you determine what type to use.
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I have used epoxy resin from RAKA and WEST.

Polyester does not bond well with wood, but is cheap to buy. Too many health issues to use it in a non vented shop like mine.
 
I have heard and experianced that Gorrila Glue does not hold up well when exposed to the elements.I have built several wood item that are kept outside and the glue is not holding very well
 
I've also experienced failures with Gorilla Glue.

I've used PL Premium poly with good results. I even used PL exclusively to build a boat. Luan covered in a bed sheet encapsulated with PL. It is about 4 or 5 years old, stored outside. I did add some jean material to the chines after a couple years as the bed sheet was getting torn up a bit. I also want to replace the coaming, but it just regular 1 by pine - and it was salvaged from an old fence when I put the boat together. Yeah - I was going for the cheapest boat I could possibly build. It is a single sheet mouse boat and I used 4 of 5 tubes of PL on it. In fact I think the total cost of the PL was over half of the total expenditures.

PL can be very ugly as it expands some. I have had good results with scraping the excess after 1-2 hours of cure time.
 
No real fillets. I did have a strip of wood that I glued in along the inside of the chine. Mostly I just glued a lap joint with no fillets. I can't remember if I used glue blocks. I did double the ends with a smaller piece on the inside so that the joint would be more like a half-lap joint. The center seam was reinforced with a strip of cloth on the inside. The outside was covered with the sheet and the inside was simply "encapsulated" with PL.
 
When it comes to wood boats epoxy will out perform polyester. The biggest drawback to epoxy is wetting out typical fibreglass fabric. Conventional fabrics have a volan A finish for use with polyester resins. Epoxy doesn't wet it out easily. West systems' fabrics have a saline finish that is suppose to wet out completely. It's been a while since I've used it. When I did it didn't seem to be that much better. Going back to the resins; epoxy has better mechanical properties than polyesters. West system is designed to thin out as it goes into it's cure cycle. That allow for wood penetration. Polyester simple does not penetrate as well. If you're going to expend all the time and money to build a boat don't skimp on the material. There are alternatives to West System resin. There are several companies that make wood saturation resin systems. One is "cold cure" check around on the internet. Before there was epoxy boat builders used resorcinol glue. That really was the only truely waterproof glue at the time. Nothing I know of today beside resorcinol is truely waterproof.
 
I must reply to the comment to the negative about Gorilla glue. I build a skull oar and glued the sides of the blades onto the main shaft with Gorilla glue. I build a small box to fit around the blade at the point where I wanted to make an offset bend in the blade. This box was used to steam this point on the blade for 3 HOURS! The glue did not fail at all and I placed the blade in a jig to make the offset. I coated the oar with epoxy and I have had no problems. If the wood is allowed the gets wet for and extended period of time, the wood at the glue area can fail with epoxy and other glues.

To help you with your choice of glue and how to use epoxy, go to the West System web site at westsystem.com and view the How To Use demo videos. This will change what you think you know about their products.


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Chuck where in the build would you use tb3 or epoxy
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Pat

Sorry I did not see this sooner. I built a stripper, I do not believe Titebond 3 was out at that time, I used #2, and I think it was still relatively new (but maybe just new to me). In strip canoe building, many 1/4 x 3/4 wood strips are glued and temporarly tacked to a frame. After the glue is set, all tacks and staples are removed, the entire outside is smoothed and covered with epoxy and fiberglass. Next the hull is flipped and the frame removed, inside is also smoothed and covered with epoxy and fiberglass. in the end, of this shell, the only thing exposed is the edge of the wood sandwiched between the two layers of epoxy and fiberglass. All the glue joints are enclosed. In this application using epoxy would be beyond tedious, where as a bottle of glue is extremely convienent. With the enclosure in glass and epoxy, there is no loss of strength or long term duribility IMHO.

If building a stitch and glue style construction, I'd definately go with epoxy...other construction styles I'd say need to be decided on a case by case basis, but my point is not all boats need to be built with thickened epoxy to be well built.

Hope this helps, BTW what kind of construction are you using on this next boat you are asking in regards to?

Chuck
 
Just another poker in the fire.

I have built several wooden boats. A Zack Taylor Widgeon Sneakbox as well as a Lake Erie Layout Boat, a small Pond Box and wood deck over my aluminum hulled boat.

On the Widgeon, I started out using resorcinol (sp) glue as described in the plans. Great stuff. You mix the two parts with a popsicle stick, in a cup, then you have about ten minutes to spread on the two parts. Works great, BUT it is a royal pain in the butt dealing with all of that mixing. After framing was complete, I gat a little resourcefull and decided to use the (new at the time) PL 500 construction adhesive for a the hull and top decking. The 500 was touted as being rated for exterior use. I have absolutely no regrets. It worked great. Needs no mixing, the cauliking gun is easy and convenient, and it has held up for over twenty years. Now I will say, I sealed the entire boat inside, the exterior is glassed and I DO take pretty good care of my rig. I never let water sit in it.

Pretty much the same results with the layout boat, pond box and big rig. Only I used the PL from start to finish. Again, NO REGRETS!

I am contemplating another build and will proably use something similar again.

Just my $.02.

Jon
 
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