Great South Bay Scooter Rehab
- Thread starter Steve Sanford
- Start date
Coach Dauber
Member
Great post, looking forward to updates. Any leads for a good set of plans?
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Coach~
I was just talking about the lack of plans with another Long Island friend this afternoon. I will be taking the lines off my scooter and drawing up some plans later this fall/winter. Also, I've always thought it would be easy enough to mold a 'glass one from an existing hull.
More posts coming soon - I spent much of today doing the miserable part - the heavy grinding of paint and 'glass. She's back in the shop now ready for some more careful work.
All the best,
SJS
I was just talking about the lack of plans with another Long Island friend this afternoon. I will be taking the lines off my scooter and drawing up some plans later this fall/winter. Also, I've always thought it would be easy enough to mold a 'glass one from an existing hull.
More posts coming soon - I spent much of today doing the miserable part - the heavy grinding of paint and 'glass. She's back in the shop now ready for some more careful work.
All the best,
SJS
Coach Dauber
Member
I found a site searching under "Bellport Scooter Club" that has a book which is advertised as having plans/instructions to build a Scooter. Also, ordered a copy of the "23 Boats you can build" off Amazon for less than $11 bucks. The Bellport book was 50 and not sure how active the site is based upon the dates. Anyway they took my 50 via PayPal. We will see what happens and I will report out once The books are received. Waiting with my fingers crossed...
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Coach~
I hope they will include plans for gunning scooters - but I fear not. I think they will be for sailing/racing craft - which have few of the features needed for gunning. They are not designed to row, pole or hide. But, they sure can sail!
I just came in from taking the most basic measurements from my scooter. I must have mis-measured 20+ years ago because she's exactly a foot longer than I had thought - LOA 15'9" Beam 3'6 5/8".
All the best,
SJS
I hope they will include plans for gunning scooters - but I fear not. I think they will be for sailing/racing craft - which have few of the features needed for gunning. They are not designed to row, pole or hide. But, they sure can sail!
I just came in from taking the most basic measurements from my scooter. I must have mis-measured 20+ years ago because she's exactly a foot longer than I had thought - LOA 15'9" Beam 3'6 5/8".
All the best,
SJS
Coach Dauber
Member
Steve,
Started receiving some of the plans. So far you are right on the money. Look to be the sailing craft. Nothing wrong with that but I want to build a boat to hunt. Dealing with the ice on our local bays would be a plus for our 2 day late season in MI. I am still waiting for the PM 23 boats book and the one from the Bell Port club.
Started receiving some of the plans. So far you are right on the money. Look to be the sailing craft. Nothing wrong with that but I want to build a boat to hunt. Dealing with the ice on our local bays would be a plus for our 2 day late season in MI. I am still waiting for the PM 23 boats book and the one from the Bell Port club.
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Coach~
What's your time frame? It'll be a couple of months before I can draw up the full construction plans I intend - but I could get out some rough drawings within a couple of weeks if you want to start something soon.
Just let me know.
All the best,
SJS
What's your time frame? It'll be a couple of months before I can draw up the full construction plans I intend - but I could get out some rough drawings within a couple of weeks if you want to start something soon.
Just let me know.
All the best,
SJS
Coach Dauber
Member
Steve,
Realistically I wouldn't start until the weather breaks in the spring. I have plenty to keep busy with and it wouldnt hit the water this season. I didn't realize you were going to do the plans. That would be awesome plus I love the lines on your boat.
I have never built a boat from scratch but have rebuilt a sneak boat years ago. I grew up on the Clinton River in Mt. Clemens. We hunted Lake St Clair back in the 70's. I do have a Miley Smith lap strake that needs some TLC.
My wood skills are decent and I am fortunate to have a well stocked wood shop. I will keep in touch and post any info I may come across.
Regards,
Coach
Realistically I wouldn't start until the weather breaks in the spring. I have plenty to keep busy with and it wouldnt hit the water this season. I didn't realize you were going to do the plans. That would be awesome plus I love the lines on your boat.
I have never built a boat from scratch but have rebuilt a sneak boat years ago. I grew up on the Clinton River in Mt. Clemens. We hunted Lake St Clair back in the 70's. I do have a Miley Smith lap strake that needs some TLC.
My wood skills are decent and I am fortunate to have a well stocked wood shop. I will keep in touch and post any info I may come across.
Regards,
Coach
Jeff Reardon
Well-known member
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Jeff~
re a sailing rig on a duckboat - I could not agree more. I always look longingly at Barnegats, Delaware Duckers, Melonseeds and Seaford Skiffs under sail and wish I had a spot where I could use one under gunning conditions. My Scooter has the partners and step for a mast - and I even built a mast and sprit for it years ago (the mast resides in my loft with all of my other spars from my other sailboats) but never sewed up a leg o' mutton sail. I envision sailing lazily homeward (downwind) after a morning's hunt in the open bay.
As you know, both boats started out as "workboats" but were later developed for yachting. They were developed before engines and so oar and sail were the motive power for which they were designed. The Barnegat was built for sailing primarily on water - with its trunk, daggerboard and even rudder sometimes. It evolved into larger boats intended for racing under lots of canvas in the warmer months. The rigs got larger along with the hulls but the basic shape of the hull did not change.
The Scooter was built primarily for getting across a frozen, saltwater bay in all its forms. It could be dragged, piked, kedged (with a grapnel), rowed and sailed. The early boats had no jib and could sail only off the wind. As it evolved into a sailing yacht, its rig got much larger and a balanced jib and jibboom were added for steering. The Scooter's hull was changed markedly for yachting. Its rowing and hiding and seaworthiness capabilities were reduced in the modifications to its hull and cockpit shape. Its ice sailing capabilites were maximized at the expense of its gunning characteristics. (Come to think of it, I've never heard of anyone taking their Scooter out for a summertime sail.) The biggest difference is the beam. Whereas a gunning Scooter was generally around 42 inches wide, the sailing Scooter was in the vicinity of 5 or even 6 feet. (I should note that some Scooters were built with very wide beams - the so-called "pumpkinseed scooter" - but these were specialized for open bay gunning, developed in response to the ban on batteries; like the batteries -and the layout craft developed independently on the Great Lakes - they were set out and tended by larger craft - they were not a self-contained unit like Barnegats or gunning Scooters.) The cockpits became just a well for the purpose of putting the crew's feet and did not need to hide them in a gunning position. The yachting Scooters were designed to race and so, like most things designed for racing, they became impractical for other, more utilitarian uses.
So, you could hunt out of a Scooter designed primarily for sailing, but you would need to pick your weather more carefully and maybe modify the cockpit - and be prepared to handle a cranky boat once you're afloat. If you wanted to sail, you would need to make a much smaller rig - with spars that could stow beneath the decks. If the need for a Scooter is to get over the ice so you can hunt an "air hole", the gunning hull would be much more effective.
BTW: Ain't it the specialized nature of duckboats that makes them so much fun?!
Hope this is helpful,
SJS
re a sailing rig on a duckboat - I could not agree more. I always look longingly at Barnegats, Delaware Duckers, Melonseeds and Seaford Skiffs under sail and wish I had a spot where I could use one under gunning conditions. My Scooter has the partners and step for a mast - and I even built a mast and sprit for it years ago (the mast resides in my loft with all of my other spars from my other sailboats) but never sewed up a leg o' mutton sail. I envision sailing lazily homeward (downwind) after a morning's hunt in the open bay.
As you know, both boats started out as "workboats" but were later developed for yachting. They were developed before engines and so oar and sail were the motive power for which they were designed. The Barnegat was built for sailing primarily on water - with its trunk, daggerboard and even rudder sometimes. It evolved into larger boats intended for racing under lots of canvas in the warmer months. The rigs got larger along with the hulls but the basic shape of the hull did not change.
The Scooter was built primarily for getting across a frozen, saltwater bay in all its forms. It could be dragged, piked, kedged (with a grapnel), rowed and sailed. The early boats had no jib and could sail only off the wind. As it evolved into a sailing yacht, its rig got much larger and a balanced jib and jibboom were added for steering. The Scooter's hull was changed markedly for yachting. Its rowing and hiding and seaworthiness capabilities were reduced in the modifications to its hull and cockpit shape. Its ice sailing capabilites were maximized at the expense of its gunning characteristics. (Come to think of it, I've never heard of anyone taking their Scooter out for a summertime sail.) The biggest difference is the beam. Whereas a gunning Scooter was generally around 42 inches wide, the sailing Scooter was in the vicinity of 5 or even 6 feet. (I should note that some Scooters were built with very wide beams - the so-called "pumpkinseed scooter" - but these were specialized for open bay gunning, developed in response to the ban on batteries; like the batteries -and the layout craft developed independently on the Great Lakes - they were set out and tended by larger craft - they were not a self-contained unit like Barnegats or gunning Scooters.) The cockpits became just a well for the purpose of putting the crew's feet and did not need to hide them in a gunning position. The yachting Scooters were designed to race and so, like most things designed for racing, they became impractical for other, more utilitarian uses.
So, you could hunt out of a Scooter designed primarily for sailing, but you would need to pick your weather more carefully and maybe modify the cockpit - and be prepared to handle a cranky boat once you're afloat. If you wanted to sail, you would need to make a much smaller rig - with spars that could stow beneath the decks. If the need for a Scooter is to get over the ice so you can hunt an "air hole", the gunning hull would be much more effective.
BTW: Ain't it the specialized nature of duckboats that makes them so much fun?!
Hope this is helpful,
SJS
I would love to see some plans/photos of a scooter for hunt and sail.... I would have to add that to my fleet i fear!
Coach Dauber
Member
I picked up a copy of the PM 23 boats you can build. The scooter is a sailing type. I am just in a holding pattern to get your plans. In the mean time I will get the shop ready to tackle the project next spring.
Coach
Coach
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Coach~
I took a leave of absence from the Scooter to switch my shop stove - just in time because I've been using it the last couple of nights. In fact, It helped a saturation coat of epoxy cure last night on the fantail.
I plan to get serious about the measured drawings soon - so feel free to keep the pressure on! (Lots of distractions this time of year.)
All the best,
SJS
I took a leave of absence from the Scooter to switch my shop stove - just in time because I've been using it the last couple of nights. In fact, It helped a saturation coat of epoxy cure last night on the fantail.
I plan to get serious about the measured drawings soon - so feel free to keep the pressure on! (Lots of distractions this time of year.)
All the best,
SJS
Steve great history on that scooter, and nice to see old bay photos as well. My uncle has an old 2 man layout boat built way back when, I was thinking of restoring it as well trying to find some photos of it
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Anthony~
I just got back from 2 great days of gunning on the Island (with Craig Kessler and Fred Wertz). So, I guess my 2013-14 season is now over - which means I will be getting back to restoring the Scooter (as soon as I clean the guns, dress a few birds, and start storing a bunch of gear). The bottom is ready for measurements and then paint.
I took some time Wednesday to visit the boat shed at the Long Island Maritime Museum in West Sayville. They have 6 or 7 gunning Scooters there - including 2 that look like Benjamin Hallock boats (like mine) - along with a few sailing Scooters (yachts). I was able to inspect some of the details and take a bunch of photos.
You have piqued my curiosity about your uncle's (Steve's?) 2-man scooter. I will be down again for the March 1 LI Decoy Collectors Show - maybe I could arrange to take a look at it on that weekend.
All the best,
SJS
I just got back from 2 great days of gunning on the Island (with Craig Kessler and Fred Wertz). So, I guess my 2013-14 season is now over - which means I will be getting back to restoring the Scooter (as soon as I clean the guns, dress a few birds, and start storing a bunch of gear). The bottom is ready for measurements and then paint.
I took some time Wednesday to visit the boat shed at the Long Island Maritime Museum in West Sayville. They have 6 or 7 gunning Scooters there - including 2 that look like Benjamin Hallock boats (like mine) - along with a few sailing Scooters (yachts). I was able to inspect some of the details and take a bunch of photos.
You have piqued my curiosity about your uncle's (Steve's?) 2-man scooter. I will be down again for the March 1 LI Decoy Collectors Show - maybe I could arrange to take a look at it on that weekend.
All the best,
SJS
Yep it would be Uncle Steve's old 2 man. I've heard both those guys names before very familiar if I'm not mistaken I think Fred lives 2 canal's over from me… not sure.
If you're in the area again definitely stop by March may be tough as I'll be away for college down in Maryland but the family is always up here. My uncle george actually helps run that show so i'll try to make it if i can. Also I'll try to get a picture of the scooter before I leave.
Looks like you've had a great hunt this week as well, great sunset! Hope all is well
If you're in the area again definitely stop by March may be tough as I'll be away for college down in Maryland but the family is always up here. My uncle george actually helps run that show so i'll try to make it if i can. Also I'll try to get a picture of the scooter before I leave.
Looks like you've had a great hunt this week as well, great sunset! Hope all is well
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Jim~
Correct! I will be explaining more as I complete the restoration.
There are actually several methods of propulsion used for these gunning Scooters on the ice: dragging (on foot), piking (pushing while standing in the boat), sailing (a small, stowable rig), grappling.
The pike pole has a specialized "scooter hook" as a head that allows you to push or pull. The way I usually get out of the water (we call them "air holes") is to row enough to get up a head of steam and get about half the boat up on the ice. Salt ice is more "plastic" than the brittle freshwater ice so it "bends" a little under the weight of the boat. Then, in one very quick - and graceful? - motion, I use the "hook" on the pike to pull the boat all the way up. If this fails, I may need the grapnel anchor. It's 40-foot line is rove through the bow eye. I then toss it where I want to be and hope that one of its flukes grabs in the relatively soft salt ice. If the ice is especially brittle, it will usually at least fetch up on a slight ridge or other imperfection. In either event, I then haul the boat up and out with the line.
Scooters were originally developed as workboats to serve baymen and Coastguardsmen to negotiate the variable conditions of ice and open water on Great South Bay for 2 or 3 months each year. Powerful outboards and helicopters have replaced them by and large.
Yes, it is LOTS of work. But, the "Arctic landscape" it opens up is unparalleled, in my experience.
Hope this helps,
SJS
Correct! I will be explaining more as I complete the restoration.
There are actually several methods of propulsion used for these gunning Scooters on the ice: dragging (on foot), piking (pushing while standing in the boat), sailing (a small, stowable rig), grappling.
The pike pole has a specialized "scooter hook" as a head that allows you to push or pull. The way I usually get out of the water (we call them "air holes") is to row enough to get up a head of steam and get about half the boat up on the ice. Salt ice is more "plastic" than the brittle freshwater ice so it "bends" a little under the weight of the boat. Then, in one very quick - and graceful? - motion, I use the "hook" on the pike to pull the boat all the way up. If this fails, I may need the grapnel anchor. It's 40-foot line is rove through the bow eye. I then toss it where I want to be and hope that one of its flukes grabs in the relatively soft salt ice. If the ice is especially brittle, it will usually at least fetch up on a slight ridge or other imperfection. In either event, I then haul the boat up and out with the line.
Scooters were originally developed as workboats to serve baymen and Coastguardsmen to negotiate the variable conditions of ice and open water on Great South Bay for 2 or 3 months each year. Powerful outboards and helicopters have replaced them by and large.
Yes, it is LOTS of work. But, the "Arctic landscape" it opens up is unparalleled, in my experience.
Hope this helps,
SJS