Grumman canoe sail ? Need help.

bob welsh

bob welsh

Well-known member
Looking for anyone with a Grumman canoe sail rig . I am missing the curved piece that attaches to the stem on the outside for the purpose of hanging the rudder. If anybody has one or can send me a picture I can 3D print it. Would need the pics to have a reference item like a quarter or some established size in the pic. Bob
 
Bob, I'm familiar with the part you need, and we probably have one on an existing Grumman canoe at the club. I have to go out there this coming weekend, and will try to find one that I can take a pic of and dimension for you. I would also say that there are other ways of doing the rudder. A "quarter rudder" can be used that pivots on a thwart, like a leeboard. Can be made to kick up, etc. I designed one a while back (20 years ago), and made a little mockup. I'll have to dig for the drawings, but will look on an old hard drive. Meanwhile, let me see what I can find.

I've done quite a lot of canoe sailing, and still do from time to time. I sailed a Grumman with ACA rig before I built my own boats. Was pretty fast.

Good luck,
Jim
 
Thanks for the reply. The mast step was 3D printed and looks good. The original was aluminum and strong . I will see how this works. The rudder bracket is being mocked up based on photos from the internet. I could use more is you come across them. Or let me borrow the part and I will mill it out of aluminum.
DISCLAIMER. I am not the operator of such a high tech piece of equipment. They don't let tools like that fall into the hands of a career C- student. My son the engineer plays with toys like this. But it's pretty cool I will say.
 
Bob, I struck out this weekend on the rudder gudgeon. We must have sold those sailing Grummans we had, as they are no longer on the boat racks. That fitting is Vee shaped in section, to fit the stem, and is held on with a fast pin and ring ding. The tricky part is getting the pintle holes lined up. the stems have a lot of recurve, and you have to be careful with the pivot geometry.

I sailed a Grumman with ACA rig for a year before I got my own boat. I used to win races with it, too. I've spent a lot of time in sailing canoes, both monohull and outrigger. I'll post a couple of pics later.

Sorry about the dead end,
Jim
 
Good morning, Bob~


Glad you found a solution!


I have only read about 3D printers. Question: What is the material?


All the best,


SJS

 
Abs plastic. It's strong stuff so I'll run it through the paces and see how it holds up. If not we can use it for a pattern and mill it from aluminum . Switching gears today, headed to the river to do a bit of work at the club. Nice to hear from you Steve.
 
Mocked it all up on land . Need some fine tuning but that will be at the lake. I'm no sailor so I will take some tips on the whole sailing thing.
 
First, never jibe (when the wind is pushing you along from the stern, this is called a "run", turning to sail upwind from this position is a jibe. When you do this the boom swings in an arc HARD across the stern as the other side of your sail begins to fill with air.) with that skinny mast, probably why Grumman dropped these as an option. SNAP!!! I have a 15' rigged to take a mast and that lanteen rigged sail.

Basically you can sail upwind at any angle outside of about 15 degrees on either side of the wind direction. This is a "reach". As the breeze stiffens and your hull begins to heal over, you can loosen the line attached to the boom, this is your main sheet. In a canoe, never tie it off to anything, since one quick gust will likely put you in the water, particularly if the dagger-board on the upwind side of your hull breaks clear of the water. You should have some means of raising and lowering their depth. Don't take a poor swimmer along until you get the hang of sailing this, even if they wear a life jacket since their panicking can and will likely put you both in the water. If you go over, before trying to right the hull, point the bow directly into the wind. This way when the boat returns to upright the sail should quickly swing back to the hull's mid-line and put you in Irons. Leave the mainsheet loose and swim back to the stern and push the hull forwrd several times to empty water over the gunnels. IF you are in deep water you can hopefully visualize how difficult this is and how exhausting it can be...so be careful. Getting back into a partially swamped canoe in deep water is not an easy task.
 
Thanks RL, great tips. I have practiced open water rescue in a swamped canoe and it can be difficult. That was not a sailing canoe . This canoe is a 20 footer and the sail is 45 sf. Reading that the 19squares and 20 'carried 65-75 sf of sail. 45 sf may make my boat a dog or give me enough room for my learning curve.
 
Bob, my concern is not the small sail area, its the limited depth of the daggerboards, which essentially serve as a counterlever to forces placed on the sail's surface.
 
Hi Rick and Bob,
At the risk of ruffling feathers, I'm going disagree with a couple of points. I think you should learn how to jibe safely, and practice (in light air at first). There may well be times when you lack sea room to wear around, and a jibe may be the only option. I agree that a sailing canoe jibe in a lot of wind can be hairy. A vang will help control the boom. Once you lose the fear of the jibe, and get good at it, you can do some pretty impressive things. I used to sail every year with a group down on Cedar Is., NC. The landing spot was a narrow creek which was invariably down wind in the afternoon. I liked to sail in there on a screaming run, jibe all standing, and round up spectacularly head to wind next to the bank, and step out of the canoe dry shod. That is best to practice first without an audience.

Also, my experience has been that a leeboard immersed on anything below a broad reach is unstable. I've found that there is a definite heeling force towards the immersed board, particularly if the board is on the same side as the boom. A canoe likes to run fast with just the rudder, and crew weight aft. Particularly a Grumman, with the mast stepped so far forward. But they are fast down wind. I sailed, and raced, a Grumman for a year, before buying a glass hull and rebuilding he rig. I don't have any Grumman pics, unfortunately, but below are some of my glass canoes with 45' ACA lateen, and some with the 55' C Class rig. I'll post some some outrigger shots, too. But those will be out of the realm of what Bob is doing.

Oh yes! Flotation, flotation, flotation. A flotation bag bow and stern will help!

First pic is my first sailing canoe, before rebuilding the hull and rig. South Edisto River, S.C. 1993. The others are various and sundry, through the last close to 30 years of canoe sailing. It's too many pictures, I know. Can't help it.

35_CanoeSailing7.jpg


alien_2020.jpg


alien1.jpg


cclass2.jpg


36_CanoeSailing8.jpg


40_twoBoatsweb.jpg


43_oljib.jpg


42_olfh.jpg


I have rigging pics, if anyone is interested. Good luck!
Jim
 
Bob, longer leeboard, for sure. You only really need one. The leeboard thwart should move aft considerably. I'm going to say 28-30" aft of the mast. You'll have bad weather helm that far forward.I've attached a link to a basic rigging guide from one of the old time sailors, who designed the 44' ACA rig, Larry Zuk.

http://canusail.org/Zuk_Papers/sail.html
 
Gents~


This thread gets more and more interesting....


Lots of sailing experience - but not in a canoe (well, a couple of jury-rigged runs whilst gunning with my partner in a following gale or two...)


But, I concur with Jim - there's a big difference between an accidental jibe (or "gybe" as the Brits say) and a controlled jibe. The latter is very handy in light airs. I always grabbed the main sheet in my left hand and helped/guided the boom across the stern in my old gaff sloop and eased it out as the sail filled.


I put a step in Sweet Gherkin when I built her - but never did make a rig.



View attachment Sweet Gherkin - 2010.jpg



In any event, no way this old man could get himself back aboard a swamped canoe - rigged or unrigged - nowadays.



Have fun!


SJS

 
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