Hey Dr. Osier

Wow, very sad. It sounds like she shot up the whole department.

I looked for her Vitae, but all the UAH sites are locked up. Lots of things go into the tenure decision, so who knows - but I would say that people are seldom surprised by a negative decision in a well-functioning department, so the writing was probably on the wall. I looked up her publication record and it looks like she published a couple times early after arriving at UAH (likely PhD backlog) and then twice last year. I can't say for sure, but that publication pattern is pretty common for someone denied tenure as it is indicative of publishing for tenure rather than establishing a career that will last.

Either way a horrible thing.

T
 
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Tod

The old saying "publish or perish" just took on a whole new meaning. Our community was reeling from a middle school shooting last week that left one student dead. Now this. Very sad for the families and loved ones.
 
Geeze, I didn't think of that saying... painful.

Not to give her a justification, but it is a pretty cruel experiance. You get the job and have 5-6-7 years to taste the good life and assume that identity, then you are told you aren't good enough. Isn't because the jobs went overseas or the economy is slow, it is because: 1) you can't do the job or 2) you aren't a good fit. It also FEELS very personal, it isn't "the man" or a boss making the decision, it is your peers. Plenty of people get fired because they aren't liked or can't hack it, BUT very very few people who are fired for their job performance or personality have invested that much or have performed at that high of a level for their entire life. Non-academics can't fathom the singleminded drive, investment and sacrifice that it takes to get and hold a job like that.

I know, I know - plenty of folks will say suck it up everyone wishes that thier life could be so good and all she did was to lose a job, but speaking from someone who has her job, she lost a lot more than a job. She lost her identity and her career that she has worked for for 20-30 years. A failed tenure attempt would pretty much be the end of the line for that career. What she did was horrible there is no excuse, but I can see how it would happen.

T
 
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Tod

I appreciate the insight as to what she lost. I was under the impression that in her spot you could usually find another university and restart that 5-7 year period, or go back to grad school and do more post grad work to put yourself in a better postion, plus there are always JCs looking for PhDs. Granted the money and stature is forfeited but one could eventually find their way to another opportunity for "the good life". It must be one heck of a fall from grace. Like you said the thought of having it and losing it with no recourse, and then having start partway over or accept considerable less can drive someone to murder. The question now is will Universities implement policies to prevent this from happening, either in the form of metal detectors, or councilling for those who are about to get the boot, etc.
 
Yes, she could get any of a million jobs at a JC somewhere. The reduction in pay would be dramatic at a JC, but more so, there would be no research program, so she would no longer be a practicing "scientist". Given UAH's position in the food chain I don't think she would be marketible elsewhere and would be viewed as damaged goods for other jobs. We are careful to scrutinize any gaps or changes in direction in the record for insight into the person when they apply a failed tenure attempt is a red flag. All the searches I've run have had at minimum 60 applicants, and more than 100 is the norm, so the competition is fierce.

Good questions, but I'll be real surprised if there is any differance in how it is done in the future. We have a bunch of folks coming up for tenure in the next coupel years!
 
There are lots of opportunities for Ph.D.s in government service, and those positions often pay better than universities. I understand the loss of identity and everything she has been striving for over the last 20 years, but this is still a tragic outcome.
 
Well as a jury of her peers, I think you just found her not guilty by means of temporary insanity.

Being a father of three, 7 and under, I do think about the possiblity of something tragic happening to one of my children. I know that I would be so grief stricten that I would probably never laugh again. I feel sorry for those who lost a loved one but Tod's point of view does put it into better perspective about putting years of your life into something and to just be denied would certainly make it understandable how she lost it.
 
There are lots of opportunities for Ph.D.s in government service, and those positions often pay better than universities. I understand the loss of identity and everything she has been striving for over the last 20 years, but this is still a tragic outcome.
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To be sure, what she did was horrible and without excuse. Loss of identity and dream was my main point, if her dream was as a university professor/scientist, that was essentially a dead end. Surely government jobs or industry jobs were and option. There are a hundred ways she could have supported herself, she could have even gotten a "real" job. Her life wasn't over, but that identity she had worked for may have been in her (ovbiously warped) mind. Offering a potential reason for what she did doesn't make it right.

As far as PhDs in goverment service sure, I have lots of very good friends in the goverment service. I have very close personal friends in the USGS, USDA and NOAA and they all have great jobs. Those jobs were highly competitive to get and from what I can tell as long as they are willing to move, they were "tenured" the day they accepted the offer. To do it again, my approach woudl have been to do my PhD in an area such that I woudl have had the option for a government job so that had I not succeeded I could have had more options. I advise all my students not to sell the government jobs short, especially after seeing my friends happy in them.
 
Well as a jury of her peers, I think you just found her not guilty by means of temporary insanity.

Being a father of three, 7 and under, I do think about the possiblity of something tragic happening to one of my children. I know that I would be so grief stricten that I would probably never laugh again. I feel sorry for those who lost a loved one but Tod's point of view does put it into better perspective about putting years of your life into something and to just be denied would certainly make it understandable how she lost it.
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No she is fully guilty. I was trying to be respectful, but she was obviously a wack job. A wack job put in a position I can understand to some extent.
 
Tod,

I know that you weren't condoning it....but it does make you understand some of the reason behind it and it certainly doesn't make it right as you have stated before
 
It sounds like she knew what was coming and thought out her response. As Tod has described it was devastating to her professionally. I use to lurk in the lower echelons of academia. Publish or perish was not why I did what I did.

This is another sad and tragic example of the lack of personal responsibility in our society today. It was easier to blame the tenure committee that to look at herself and identify her own short comings. Granted, that is difficult for all of us. But, taking lives is unexcusable. The devastation she has left will echo in all the families involved for decades.

Tom
 
With four grown children I can't quite get over the changes in society in my lifetime. I had a conversation about this with my octogenarian mother a couple of weeks ago.

My father worked at one job for 35 years after returning home at the end of WWII. My children will likely change jobs every few years as that is the norm these days.

My mother was not allowed to go to university as it was too expensive and the money was reserved for the boys to go. Women stayed home and kept house. My two girls have two and three degrees respectively. There is no chance they are cleaning up after anyone but themselves.

My father worked his tail off to get what he had in his lifetime. My kids all jumped to roughly the same standard of living with their first job following university.

My father had time for his kids, spent time with wife, took the family on long vacations, and understood that he took care of his job because his job took care of the family. My kids log long hours, deal with job competition and unemployment my father wouldn't understand and sacrifice their lives to get ahead.

I'm not sure this is progress. Should you live to work or work to live?

When who you are is defined by your job you have to feel an enormous amount of pressure. The work world stresses are already huge and then you heap on a loss of identity and I'm not surprised when someone snaps. Add to that the stress of functioning in an academic world and you have a tragedy in the making.
 
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Tod,

I worked in research at USU for almost 10 years. Many of my friends have gone through the tenure track. and one is a department head now. I myself worked on a PhD in water research engineering for a few years (part time), taught classes, took classes, and worked 65 hours plus a week. I also traveled considerably for work (120 days a year). During this time I was in my late 40's and early 50's. It all unraveled when my health went south and my doctor looked me in the eye and said "You have a choice,,,heart attack or stroke,,,or change your life style". It was as if I was kicked in the gut by a bull, sure it wasn't my peers telling me I was not good enough, instead it was my body telling me to stop. It felt as if the last 10 years and all the desire to do research and teach was crushed. I walked in two weeks after the doc appointment and resigned my position.

I am not sure that a person that has not been involved in that life style and academia would understand the complete loss I felt (I was not even on a tenure track). Two years passed doing odd consulting jobs here and there before I started my own environmental consulting business. Things are OK now but I understand the meat grinder that one endures to obtain a full professorship and a coveted research position.

My only regret is that I did not start into research and a PhD program when I was in my late 20 or early 30's as then my health probably would have held up to the constant grind.

One fallout of that time in my life is an inquisitive mind that is still an active "monster".....

Do you teach and do research Tod? What field?

Matt
 
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you talk as if "academics and research" is something "next to God" and no hman that isn't in "your etherial plane" can understand the dedication, devotion, hard work needed to be successful, or the pain that is present when somethng pushes you out, (whether that be your inability to perform, your peers inability to see your worth, or your body, makes it impossible for you to either "maintain station" or "progress"....

Excuse me gentlemen but BULLSHIT.....what you describe in your chosen job field is true of EVERY job description above, oh lets say, "towel drier" at the local car wash.....

Publish or Perish....PLEASEEEEEE....you think thats any more difficult, any more trying, than meeting profit or performance goals established by someone other than yourself? You think busting your ass to meet a goal so that you can achieve bonus, get a raise, or a promotion is somehow "less than" not achieving "tenure"?

No disrepect intended....just a simple statement that ANY person, who works in a job where he plans on making that his "lifes work"; where he is expected to teach, mentor and guide those under him, while perfomring his assignned responsiblities; while making sure that his peers, and superiors, not only like him but value his participation; where he hopes to reach the next available position is in the same situation as you believe to be unique to your job description, are just as devoted to their jobs and are just as devasted, and lost, and crushed, when something happens to alter their job course, status and direction....

You may be correct that I don't understand "academia" but your statement about its "uniqueness" clearly shows that you don't understand the rest of the workplace any better.....

Steve
 
Steve,

Not sure how to explain the "difference" between a University setting and other fields or work. I worked for almost 30 years (started working at 13) before starting in reseach at USU. Academia is a mind set that I never found in other occupations and I had some really great jobs. I evened owned an outfitting business for 10 years specializing in deer and elk. I loved the interaction with the clients and all that was part of outfitting.

I do not think that PhD types are "better" or more "special" if you will than the rest of the population. So I hope you do not assume that all PhDs are ego driven snobs, many are really great people as friends and neighbors. I will give that a some of them do assume that earning a tenured professorship equates to being a "god" and all of the "normal" folks better take notice....I worked for a fellow like that....

Matt
 
in fact Tod is a good friend of mine and has been for years....will be long after this post is forgotten...in addition I happen to know, and like, several other people that have PhD's and that have devoted their lives to "academia"....like every "group" of people some of them are of the finset kind and some aren't so this isn't about me thinking that people involved in University academics are "snobs" its a simple statement that "anyone" that thinks their job is "special", something that "no one but someone in their field could possibly understand" is,IMO, wrong......

I worked in middle to upper level management for 25 years of my career.....not one thing about the job description, the dedication to the job, the effort necessary to succeed, the hours needed to maintain position and the heartbreak that comes from being successful but not advancing, or even being fired, is "different" than what you believe to be unique....

You can say I'm wrong all you want....all that indicates to me is that you are equally "wrong" about working in any job in corperate America where the intent of that job is for it to be one's "life work".......


Steve
 
you talk as if "academics and research" is something "next to God" and no hman that isn't in "your etherial plane" can understand the dedication, devotion, hard work needed to be successful, or the pain that is present when somethng pushes you out, (whether that be your inability to perform, your peers inability to see your worth, or your body, makes it impossible for you to either "maintain station" or "progress"....

Excuse me gentlemen but BULLSHIT.....what you describe in your chosen job field is true of EVERY job description above, oh lets say, "towel drier" at the local car wash.....

Publish or Perish....PLEASEEEEEE....you think thats any more difficult, any more trying, than meeting profit or performance goals established by someone other than yourself? You think busting your ass to meet a goal so that you can achieve bonus, get a raise, or a promotion is somehow "less than" not achieving "tenure"?

No disrepect intended....just a simple statement that ANY person, who works in a job where he plans on making that his "lifes work"; where he is expected to teach, mentor and guide those under him, while perfomring his assignned responsiblities; while making sure that his peers, and superiors, not only like him but value his participation; where he hopes to reach the next available position is in the same situation as you believe to be unique to your job description, are just as devoted to their jobs and are just as devasted, and lost, and crushed, when something happens to alter their job course, status and direction....

You may be correct that I don't understand "academia" but your statement about its "uniqueness" clearly shows that you don't understand the rest of the workplace any better.....

Steve
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Steve,

I tried hard to paint a picture of the place in the life of a person who just committed a horrible act, given my experience. I was careful to outline how this job is different than other jobs and why this point in her life was particularly unique. I reread all that I wrote and stand by it.

You seem to think that this woman was at a point in her life that is common to other jobs. People do lose their job, get angry and shoot their co-workers - a sad but true fact. She lost he job and shot he co-workers, but there is more to it than that. I tried to express that the position she was in is unique to academia and I maintain my statement is irrefutable. That this one moment of an academic's career is really a tough spot doesn't diminish every other job out there. There are two potential outcomes when you receive a final tenure decision… One, she would have all her past work validated and she would have a job for life. The alternative outcome is that the track she was on for years ended with little hope that her career would continue. The second outcome I present is common in everyday life, but what about the first? You talk about failure and risk being common to most jobs and question the “uniqueness” of hers. Tell me the other jobs where there is a similar moment – fail and go home unable to build on the skills gained vs. validation and job for life? Those conditions don’t exist in the picture of risk and gain that you paint.

You question the effort required relative to other jobs in your statement “you think thats any more difficult, any more trying, than meeting profit or performance goals established by someone other than yourself?” I didn’t say that the job was more difficult than all other jobs; there are certainly lots of jobs more difficult and difficult depends on how you define it. The job is different than most and I said that people don’t and can’t understand what it takes to be where she is. I maintain that the nonacademic cannot understand the combination of skills, sacrifice, persistence and luck needed to get her to where she got - just like I don't understand what it takes to get point x in most jobs. I have a sense of what people don't understand about my job, because people ask me all the time and have no idea when I tell them.

As you said, we know each other well and have for many years. I'll go further and question the underlying cause for such vitriol. I have read a fair bit of your prose and I’m surprised by how your post reads and I question what brought you to respond in such a way. Of all things, I know that you have a thirst for knowledge as few do and that you have one of the finest analytical and encyclopedic minds of anyone I’ve met – the ideal makeup of an academic. I can't help but wonder if your pucker towards my statement about academics is due to the fact that you wish you had chosen differently in life and now are taking it out on a friend.

T
 
Steve,

Not sure how to explain the "difference" between a University setting and other fields or work. I worked for almost 30 years (started working at 13) before starting in reseach at USU. Academia is a mind set that I never found in other occupations and I had some really great jobs. I evened owned an outfitting business for 10 years specializing in deer and elk. I loved the interaction with the clients and all that was part of outfitting.

I do not think that PhD types are "better" or more "special" if you will than the rest of the population. So I hope you do not assume that all PhDs are ego driven snobs, many are really great people as friends and neighbors. I will give that a some of them do assume that earning a tenured professorship equates to being a "god" and all of the "normal" folks better take notice....I worked for a fellow like that....

Matt
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Thanks Matt in both regards.

T
 
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