hey hunting lab owners [E.I.C]

L

LI Mike

Active member
I have a 2 1/2 old yellow lab he is my first hunting dog.As a pup he was sent away to be trained due to lack of knowledge on my part i wanted to get it right the first time i have seen to many so called '' hunting dogs'' he was gone for 11 months ran competition ect. I got him back at a little over a year and what a machine.By the way his name is Remington and is my best pal and loved by my hunting partners despite his occasional shake in the blind and stolen bird or two.Anyway last summer he had what i call an episode witch i thaught was heat exhaustion but when it reoccured under cool temps and little activity i felt something was wrong.Come to find out he has E.I.C witch is energy/excitement induced callapase.witch is some sort of a genitic disorder.It normally is accompanied with a ''trigger toy'' witch i found to be yellow soft balls. Once we removed the trigger we have been episode free
Although any other E.I.C stories would be helpful my question is if i still have tour attention is should i get him fixed at 2 1/2 some oppions say that will calm him down and reduce the chance of episodes keep in mind no episodes have happened since i removed the trigger.I am worried he will lose his drive he is a beast on the hunt thats what i love about him.I don't want to snip and have a dud.he is my bud and i want what is best for him even if he becomes a house dog.what do you guys think. thanks
 
Mike,

IMO, there's no correlation between hunting drive and being neutered or not in retrievers. There are plenty of nuetered males with strong hunting drive, as well as plenty of female retrievers with strong hunting drive and desire. The more likely result of having him neutered is weight gain, which might slow his speed, but not desire. I had my 7 year old neutered in the spring, he's still got increadable drive and play. I waited too long to have him snipped.
 
if the dog tested effected, and has had episodes, then there isn't a situation where he should be bred. So whats best for him is to be fixed. Dogs live healthier lives when they are fixxed, and any dog not a good speciem for breeding would be better served being fixed. As far as reducing drive, I can't say Ive ever seen it. I have seen dogs fixxed trying to reduce their aggressiveness, and can't say Ive ever seen proof postive results on that.

Theres still a lot (imho) to learn about eic. This test is brand spanking new, and personally, I don't know if its the end all proof postive thing. But if I had a dog that had an episode, and tested effected, itd be enough for me to fix the dog and limit any more time or money I put into it, even if it was a good dog and pet. I would be vigilant about how we work, looking for 'triggers' be it a certain item, weather, stress, or what have you. Actiivy can't be done away with, because I can only assume an out of shape dog would be taxxed easier than an in shape dog, possibly making it more likely to have an episode.

Glad to hear how much you love your dog and friend, and how much you think of him. Hoping he can keep making you smile in the field for a long long time! travis
 
The test is new in the respect that you can now test any dog for a fee. The actual test has been around for quite a while. Up until they published their results the test was actually free, and at that time they only asked for a donation towards the research. The University of Minnesota has been working on these types of genetic issues for years and only recently published the data and released the test for widespread availability. So, it's actually not "brand spanking new," just as a point of clarification.

In my experience these affected dogs very widely on how they actually show the disease. We have some dogs in the practice with very mild symptoms, one dog that is six and has had three severe episodes in its lifetime but has otherwise been normal and some that have shown no symptoms. If your only concern in neutering the dog is a reduction in drive I certainly wouldn't let that factor into the decision. If your dog has the desire he is going to have it with or without his testicles.

Joe
www.gundogdoc.com
 
What does the test identify? All I've read is in DU, it seems like it is a genetic test, but that only a small percentage of carriers are actually symptomatic.
 
Mike , Sorry about your buddie. The truth is there are A LOT of labs affected by EIC.
Two friends of mine have dogs with that condition. They are both run at hunt tests/trials
and have been neutered. Neutering a dog does not ruin him but does help him avoid health
problems at a later date. Hope this helps, John
 
From the U of M link.

"Activities with continuous intense exercise, particularly if accompanied by a high level of excitement or anxiety most commonly cause collapse. Activities commonly implicated include grouse or pheasant hunting, repetitive "happy retrieves", retrieving drills or repetition of difficult marks or blinds where the dog is being repeatedly corrected or is anticipating electric collar correction, and excitedly running alongside an ATV."

Boy will the British folks have a time with this statement. I wonder if the Brits across the pond are experiencing EIC as well since it appears to be "excitable" dogs that display symptoms of EIC.

From reading the U of M stuff it appears that this is a response to the anxiety the dog is feeling. Something is triggering the release of certain hormones and due to the genetics of the dog they are more prone to having their body react to that increase in what ever hormone concentration that is increasing due to the anxiety.

Your dog wants a valium.
 
At 2 1/2 years old I would not worry about a loss of desire. Dogs are basically thru their physical maturation at 2 y/o which of course testosterone has an effect on. Since he is past that I would not expect to see a drop. I had 3 golden males. First was a MH , National Master Hunter, First golden in the National Master Hall of Fame , DUcks Unlimited's Dog of the year for the MS flyway at age 4, 3rd place at age 2 and a finalist 2 other years. He was also all age qualified. Obviously lots of drive. Later in life ( about 9 y/o) I had him neutered due to health concerns. No drop in drive,desire or ability.

The 2nd male had his first master pass before he was 15 mths old. I stopped competing him due to a divorce. The ex was trying to take him and I didn't want to make him any more valuable than he was. IMO he had more drive and desire than dog number one, above. After neutering, he retained his same drive , desire and talent.

Dog 3 was a MH . passed the only Master National he went to ,was 4th place for Georgia"s DU dog of the year. Neutering him didn't negatively effect him either.

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good luck,

baumy
 
thanks for the input guys much appreciated i'm going to go ahead with the snip.i have done a lot of research on EIC but thanks for that web site for health reasons alone i was going to snip just wanted to know what to expect.Remi is 1 of 11 and 2 were tested positive.luckily duck hunting isn't the trigger.still fell bad about chopping his nuts he seems to lick i mean like them alot
 
if the dog tested effected, and has had episodes, then there isn't a situation where he should be bred. So whats best for him is to be fixed. Dogs live healthier lives when they are fixxed, and any dog not a good speciem for breeding would be better served being fixed. As far as reducing drive, I can't say Ive ever seen it. I have seen dogs fixxed trying to reduce their aggressiveness, and can't say Ive ever seen proof postive results on that.

Theres still a lot (imho) to learn about eic. This test is brand spanking new, and personally, I don't know if its the end all proof postive thing. But if I had a dog that had an episode, and tested effected, itd be enough for me to fix the dog and limit any more time or money I put into it, even if it was a good dog and pet. I would be vigilant about how we work, looking for 'triggers' be it a certain item, weather, stress, or what have you. Actiivy can't be done away with, because I can only assume an out of shape dog would be taxxed easier than an in shape dog, possibly making it more likely to have an episode.

Glad to hear how much you love your dog and friend, and how much you think of him. Hoping he can keep making you smile in the field for a long long time! travis
Click to expand...

if a dog is affected, it can safely be bred to a clear dog with the understanding that 50% of the offspring will be carriers. this is controversial but can be safely done without producing affected offspring. you should not breed affecteds x carriers or carriers x carriers. that is my opinion.
 
Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done. I can't imagine a situation I'd breed a dog that is effected and has had episodes. 10 years ago there wasn't even agreement to what EIC is, or if it even existed. So color me skeptical we know the whole EIC story... but we do know enough now to recognize dogs that have had symptoms AND test effected. Its human nature to know something about a topic, and think we have it all figgered out. To think we can outwit something. Between the test and symptoms, I think thats a double whammy that doesn't need to be pushed into genetic lottery. We don't know it all, let's use what we do.

Why do some effected dogs show symptoms and others don't. Test dogs, trial dogs, all types of dogs, coming up effected but no symptoms? There's another part of the equation. Maybe we'll learn it, maybe we won't. Kinda like how some people smoke for 50 years and don't get cancer, someone else gets lung cancer from second hand smoke at age 30. Theres something different there. Something else. Maybe it just freggin % at work, and theres not anything but blind luck. But either way, a dog that is effected AND show symptoms, why even risk the something else? With so many good dogs to go to without the baggage. travis
 
I am curious. What is the difference (in your mind) between an affected and symptomatic dog and one that is affected and asymptomatic. you seem to stress this point.

I agree there is a lot left to know and understand about why there is variable expression of the disease, but the inheritance pattern is well worked out and not complicated. It is an autosomal recessive disease. The inheritance patterns are:

Affected x Clear = 100% Carrier
Affected x Carrier = 50% Affected, 50% carrier
Affected x Affected = 100% affected
Carrier x Carrier = 25% affected, 25% carrier, 50% clear
Carrier x Clear = 50% carrier, 50% clear
Clear x Clear = 100% clear

Some feel that breeding affected or carrier dogs is irresponsible, but it can safely be done without creating affected offspring with some understanding of the disease. I do not know if I would personally buy or breed a carrier, but it is not something I would exclude all together.
 
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sorry for going off on a tangent. i also do not think that neutering your dog will reduce his hunting drive. good luck with him.
 
sorry guys didn't mean to start a heated argument. I am just a duck hunter that has a four legged hunting partner i'm not a breeder nor have or ever had intentions of breeding or even looking for a stud fee. I dont want you to think i was or am.Unless Remi humps my wifes cat he will never have off spring. i was just asking for input from experienced hunters on what to expect if i did or if i should, neuter Remi just trying to make the best decisions for my buddy
 
i didn't think it was that heated. sorry if it comes off that way. it is hard to convey tone on a message board. if you go to rtf it seems this is debated 8 different times a week.

reading back i may seem sarcastic and don't mean to be. i am interested if there is any data on affected offspring of affected dogs having more severe disease. this does happen, but is usually in diseases with another mode of inheritance, and i am not aware that it has been described in EIC.

i will concede that EIC is a syndrome, and the best understood and most common form of inheritance is what I described above. It is possible that there are mutations on the same gene that can cause the syndrome, but may not follow autosomal recessive patterns. again, sorry that this is a little off topic from the original post.

James
 
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No heat here bro.

My thoughts... worth what ya paid for em! hehe.

The eic test has found something. That I'm pretty sure of. But since a large % of effected dogs do not, and never had symptoms, its very possible in my mind they have only found part of the equation. But if a dog has symptoms and is effected, I think we have what we need to say, thats eic period.

In the 10-12 years Ive been in this, this ain't the first genetic bombshell thats come up. In my short period of time, thyroid, myopothy, dwarfism, eic for the 2x have all been the genetic bombshell to end labs as we know it (over exaggerated for a point, obviously). Now Im sure there where plenty of things before my short time in this, but they didn't spread as far or fast without the internet. Every single sky is falling genetic problem Ive seen, the conviential wisdom has changed several times flip floping back and forth. Im not a doctor, nor a scientist, or a genecits expert... but I do know breeding a dog that goes down is not good common sense. Just like a dog with skin problems but good thyroid tests I don't want to bred to, or any other number of problems a dog could have. The test could prove bad or good, but a dog that collaspes could pass a drivers test and I wouldn't want to have anything to do with it.

Theres an effected dog you like, it matches up well, its what you want in it the breeding. Why breed effected to clear and make any % of puppies. Do the research and find a littermate that is clear. Might not have the zing of the orignal dog, but genetically, they're as close as your going to get.

Days of old dogs where culled. I don't have the stomach for that, neither do most people. I wouldn't mind genetic lotto if I could stomach that. But in my mind, in a game where there are no guarentees about anything, Im going with common sense. travis
 
in brief, the percentages that i found were 37% of labs are carriers, out of that 37% when two carriers are bred 3% are affected, out of the 3% it's a smaller percent that have episodes more often found in hunting and agility dogs.Like i said i'm not into the breeding part just wishing for a miracle pill so i can play ball again Remi really loved it.
 
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