history lesson (ndr)

Todd Duncan Tennyson

Todd Duncan Tennyson

Well-known member
If you decide to share this (I hope you will) you may need to slightly change the wording to keep it from being pulled. I have put it up several times on FB, and it keeps being taken down.............................................. .



In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.



The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
 
todd, Thanks for the reminder. CCP applications are spiking all over the country.
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My son's father-in-law is a NRA CCP instructor. Me and my family are taking the class Sunday.

Todd,

Thanks for the history lesson.
 
I applied for and received my CCP back in July...but have not figured out what I want to buy for my carry piece. My daughter is planning on applying too. She already has her safety class, so it is just paperwork now. Son just turned 21, he will take care of his over the Semester break I suspect.
 
With Australia being the newest country to adapt gun control measures it's very interesting reading what little effect has been seen on declining homicides, suicides and the like. For instance the rate of gun suicides has drastically dropped without access to a firearm but remarkably hanging suicides are on the rise.....humm!

One incident reports a member of a shooting club obtained pistols from the club then proceded to shoot people. He's was aquited of murder based on mental health issues and now resides in a mental health institution. Apparently Australia still has mental heath institutions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia
 
Gents -
First, my condolences on the recent tragedy in Sandy Hook. This has been front page news up here in Toronto since it happened and i don't doubt has affected people throughout the world. My 8 year old son was quite upset last night as he related his version of the events to me. I can only imagine the impact on the neighbourhood and town where the shootings occurred. Truly terrible.
As a hunter I have a clear vested interest in the gun control debate. Up here this past summer there was a shooting of an innocent bystander to a dispute at a party. This sparked calls - politically opportunistic and nonsensical, to my mind - to "ban all firearms in the city of Toronto". I suddenly found myself on the defensive and empathizing to a certain degree with the NRA and other 'pro gun' organisations' mantras that we all know: "..then only criminals would have..." "guns don't"... "fools blame tools"... etc.
BUT... I think that we all must agree that much of the developed world and the USA in particular has a serious problem with gun violence. And here I say 'the developed world' to distinguish wealthy nations with stable political environments, free societies, and effective rule of law. (For the purpose of this discussion, perhaps we can exclude nations engaged in wars, civil wars, systematic genocide, or where poverty is so endemic that a 'virtual civil war' exists, say South Africa, Columbia, etc. No doubt they have 'problems with guns' but of a different nature and completely irrelevant to this debate. Mr. Tennyson, I'm looking at you.)
The oft-quoted statistic (source admittedly unknown) is that there are about 100,000 deaths-by-gun in the US every year and roughly 30,000 of these are homicides. In terms of scale, that is 10 times the 9/11 attacks every year. Can we agree that there is a problem?
What might be the solution to that problem is a question for which I have no answer. Perhaps the 'gun culture' is so engrained - blame the media! blame tv, movies, video games! - that the situation is irreversible. Perhaps there are already too many guns owned by too many criminals and whack-jobs. But is the only answer, as seems to be the tenor of this post thus far, MORE guns? (And please don't take that as condescension. I don't live in fear of my gun-toting fellow citizens, but I am not sure that I would respond any differently in those circumstances.)
What about stricter gun licensing and tighter access? And here I am talking off the top of my head (or perhaps just out my a**): annual licence renewals with background checks, seizure of guns from anyone with depression or mental illness, single-key locked storage, no handguns, no clips holding more than 5 rounds, no fully-auto weapons, restrictions on ammunition sales, first-strike felony charges for violations, etc., etc., whatever, whatever. Brighter minds than mine can decide the details. My question is directional: should there be an attempt to control gun violence by controlling guns? And yes, that may well mean an infringement of citizens' rights as laid out in the Constitution if a greater good is served (think Homeland Security, but for self-inflicted wounds.)
---
One of the things that I have always appreciated about this forum is the respect that members have for each other and the high level of genuine discourse and debate. I look forward to hearing others' opinions on this - potentially incendiary - topic.
Respectfully,
Dan
 
How many anti gun people have armed body guards to protect them? What about our anti politicians? OK for the rich and famous, but not for the general population. Why does Bloomberg have armed guards, thought he didn't believe in guns???
 
Why does Bloomberg have armed guards, thought he didn't believe in guns???
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Um, because as the mayor of one of the largest cities in the world, he is a likely candidate for an assassination attempt?
I suspect that he "believes in guns" to at least a please-don't-shoot-me-with-one degree...
 
Captain Geminski -
A quick mea culpa. After inviting a fulsome debate on this topic, I responded to your post with an off-the-cuff quip. My apologies.
Why do you see it as contradictory that 'anti' politicians travel with armed guards? Is it equally so for a 'pro gun' citizen to choose to not own an AR-15?
Dano
 
Dan,

I respect your views and appreciate your candor. This isn't the forum for this discussion but my humble opinion and only my opinion is our country was built by lawyers and our judicial system needs serious reform. The US has one of the strictest firearm control laws in the world, put into place in 1968.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

I live in Illinois which is one state that has very strict firearm laws with requiring every citizen to possess a FOID card (firearm owners ID). The Illinois State Police conducts a background check on everyone who submits an application through both Illinois and the FBI. Now criminals aren't going to run out and apply for this card but I do feel better that the people I associate with have this card. Most states that have no checks would stone me for my option but I've lived with this law all my life and although far from perfect I don't have a problem with background checks. There are many acts that will keep you from receiving a FOID card in Illinois such as being a felon, a child molester, convicted of spousal abuse, someone with mental health issues and so on. Unfortunately the mental health issue does come up here but if the professionals would actually list those patients with the state those individuals wouldn't fall through the cracks as was the case in Colorado when the professional brought it up to her superiors and it was sweep under the rug.

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/

In our judicial system we have law after law that outlines what every criminal faces when committing a crime using a firearm. Time after time the judicial system fails to follow the laws already put into place. I'm not smart enough to have the answer and maybe shouldn't even be commenting but many things need fixed in this country and more firearm laws alone isn't the answer. Sane people don't commit these crimes

When you look at the big picture even in Toronto I imagine you have Chicago as being one of the deadliest cities in America. The fact of the matter is Chicago isn't even in the top 10.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2012/12/geography-us-gun-violence/4171/

I too have tears when I think of these babies being murdered Newtown. My son and his wife are at the hospital in Brooklyn, NY as I type this waiting to hear of the birth of my first grand baby. I pray that more educated men than I are sitting in conference debating what our new laws governing the ownership of a firearm will be and hope more than inacting more firearms laws isn't the only thing that will change.
 
Todd,thankfor the post ,it is no surprise you couldn't post this on face book.
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Facesmash sucks, but their blocking it probably has more to do with the fact that this message is nothing more than another email circulated around ad nauseam and may have little grounding in actual fact, and the correlations drawn may or may not be related or just coincidental.

Chuck

PS I don't have a problem with such subjects being discussed and/or debated...just don't get personal...
 
One has to look no further than the "War on Drugs" and prohibition. Outright bans do not work. How long has the war on drugs been conducted? Are the drugs gone? No more druggies?

Up here, some very stupid person wrote the paper and said we need new gun laws. His first suggestion was make it a requirement that everyone who is going to transport a gun in any vehicle would be required to stop and get a permit prior to driving around with the gun in their car. Wow, I bet that would have stopped the recent murderer as I can see him driving to the school and thinking to himself " Hey, I can't be found with a gun in my car cause I don't have the proper permit to be driving around with the guns". Real smart.

When MN passed the carry and conceal law, all sorts of predictions about the wild wild west were rampant. Not one of these predictions has occurred. As a matter of fact, and one overlooked by the anti gun media is that the newest light rail line built in MN has killed more people than CCP holders. We should outlaw light rial right?

10 rounds, 30 rounds - big deal. How long does it take to change out a magazine on the bushmaster - 3-5 seconds. In the 10 minutes this loser was in the school how much would the 10 round mag verses the 30 round mag made in the number of people killed?

If I owned a business, I'd have a big ass sign right out front that stated guns are always welcome in my store and CCP owners get 10% off. What do you think the chances are that I would be robbed?

Finally, people ask why schools? Reminds me of the quote as to why do people rob banks - cause this is where the money is? Why do people kill kids, cause there are no guns there. Nothing complicated here. Nothing to over think. How many kids would have been saved if the janitor who was running around warning of a shooter in the school had a gun and was trained in how to use it. How about if there was an armed cop i the school?

Russia has 5 times the murder rate as the US and they don't allow individuals to own guns. Most common way is to use knifes followed by bombs. Think we want bombs i the schools?

The rhetoric floors me. I'm just waiting for someone to connect the dots that this killer was "bullied" in grade school and had we only had "anti-bullying" programs in place back then, this would never have happened

Off the soapbox for now.

Mark W
 
Look at Switzerland, every man gets mandatory military training and is required to have a firearm-they also have a very low crime rate, I don't believe guns are the issue
 
Thanks to the Fifth Amendment of the US Constitution I am not too worried about any part of our government taking my guns. Sure they will put out a ban on something, but the legal battle that will start with confiscation will cost trillions of dollars.

Over on a local Alaska forum there has been a now fifty page debate going on since Friday. Its made me think about a lot of different view points. I became curious and went looking for some information. What I learned is that humans killing humans in schools has been happening since there have been schools. Humans shooting humans in schools has been happening since there have been guns.

Below are links to three pages of tables documenting school attacks all over the world since the 1700's.

Primary Schools

Secondary Schools

College
 
Just some food for thought... Tim McVeigh killed 168 people, including 19 kids under 6. Fertilizer, diesel fuel and box trucks are still legal and no one is fighting to ban them. The reality of it is if someone is going off the hook, they are going off the hook and will find a way. We need to make sure people that need help get help at an early age.
 
Hi Ed -
I also appreciate your comments and will take strong exception only with your statement that this is not the forum for this discussion. In my opinion, this should be an open air topic for reasoned discussion without the censure of entrenched partisans positions. If not here too, then where better? Chuck seems to be on the same page.
Thanks, also, for the links and especially to the maps of gun violence in the US. There are some surprises there and an interesting overlay of class/poverty is to be considered. I will take the time to read the full article this evening.
I share your concerns and criticism of enforcement of already strict laws. We have similar or marginally more stringent laws up here in Toronto yet gun violence continues and continues to rise.
Mark, I agree completely that no law in going to prevent a lunatic from his rampage. Ed's link about the 1927 Bath school bombing is case in point. I think we all feel frustration and helplessness in how to prevent these crimes. Prohibition has never worked and seems doomed in the case of gun laws. So, to me, the battle will be fought at the margin. What can be done to change the direction of gun violence? To reduce access to those in mental distress, to take the gun out of the equation in bar fights or road rage, to move the gun off the dashboard console where it might accidentally discharge, to keep it out of the hands of adolescent street thugs? Probably nothing definitively. But something incrementally?
The sorry case of that football player that recently killed his girlfriend and then himself comes to mind. Did having a gun on hand precipitate those actions? Who knows - what happened, happened and all that is left is conjecture. But MIGHT he have acted differently if the incredibly efficiency of a firearm not been at hand? MIGHT he have shied from a more personal method of killing? MIGHT he have held back if the easy out of a bullet not been there? Impossible to know. But if whole-scale prevention - "prohibition" per your word, Mark - is impossible, then we are really left at the margin, playing the odds, fighting for the 'mights'.
For me, this comes back to what direction is society going. Nothing is going to definitively and always prevent these tragedies, but can we reduce them, control them? And what is the best way to do so?
So why is some (overly opinionated) Canadian getting so worked up about US gun violence? Canada is neither isolated or immune from this issue and will be influenced by the direction taken south of the border. Going back to your comments about your new grandchild, Ed (best wishes and a preemptive congratulations, by the way), the direction that we take today is going to determine the world that my children have to live in. America is often a leader on the world stage; i hope it can show leadership on this issue.
Respectfully,
Dan
 
Just some food for thought... Tim McVeigh killed 168 people, including 19 kids under 6. Fertilizer, diesel fuel and box trucks are still legal and no one is fighting to ban them.


Actually, you need to be licensed to sell ammonium nitrate and registered to buy it. All transactions are checked against the terrorist watch list, and the Department of Homeland Security tracks all the sales.

http://www.dhs.gov/ammonium-nitrate-security-statutes-and-regulations
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Ray -
Those are some incredible and incredibly sad statistics. Thanks for posting them.
I was struck by the acceleration within the last 20 years. I didn't take the time to add it all up, but it seems at a glance that the majority of incidents happened since, say, 1990. What does this indicate about the direction that we are headed? (Admittedly, this could be a statistical sampling error - but somehow I suspect not.)
Is there something that CAN be done to reverse this trend? I think that Ryan makes a good point that early identification of potential threats is a place to start. Would Tim McVeigh have been successful in the current war-on-terror climate? Dunno, but maybe not.
Personally, I also think reducing convenience and spur-of-the-moment access will help - at the margin. Reducing the people-killing efficiency of unrestricted weapons might help - at the margin. Making it harder to accumulate personal armouries and arsenals - at the margin. And with rose-coloured glasses firmly in place, hugging our kids and taking them hunting (yes with guns!).
Respectfully,
Dan
 
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