Hunting Dog

Brian,

If you are seriously consider a PP, you are talking to the right person. Bob Farris is THE GUY as far as Pudelpointers are concerned. I have one of his pups and am extremely impressed with him. They do take a little longer to get out of puppyhood, but as far as I am concerned are well worth it.

My pup is 10 months old. He points. He retrieves. He brings to hand without too much chewing (we had to work on this a bit). Is excellent on obedience. Has great prey drive and a huge heart.

If you look at what Bob is putting out right now for pups; he had six or seven litters ... all of which came from lines with Dams and Sires with prize 1 Natural Ability and prize 1 Utility. There is no pp breeder that can match that, maybe even no breeder of any other versatile breed with that kind of blood. He's a good guy to boot.

Good luck,
 
Andrew,

I couldn't agree more. I know a lot of folks feel this way. Aspen is so much more than an hunting partner. She is part of the family. We hunt 40 to 60 days a year and she is the kids, friend, sitter, confidant, cookie stealer,...for the whole year.

I have never seen the term "Southern Lab". For the dogs that fit your description of Sunny I have heard both the terms English and Show labs. For dogs that fit the description of my Aspen (she is tiny, I call her my tea cup lab) and Steve's Mike (who is not so tiny but long and muscular) I have heard them called, American, Western, and Field Labs, but Southern is a new one. I was trying to describe the difference between the two types of labs to a non-hunting friend of mine and the best I could think of is to tell him. The English Lab is more like an offensive line player and the field lab is more like a wide receiver. For the hunting I do I definitely appreciate the longer, thiner, more athletic, deep chest of the field lab.

I am not a dog trainer by any stretch of the imagination. I have not forced fetched any of my dogs. The only thing I really try to do is have them be well behaved and in control. Aspen is not steady to the shot. I tell myself this is because I hunt such rough country for chukars and quail and am such a piss poor shot that I want her on cripples as quick as possible. It could be a cope out or it could be the truth. I am not sure yet. I do know her shortcomings as a hunting dog such as they are are entirely my fault.

I wish I had video of my lifting her over the side of Steve's big boat for every retreive one day. She was not use to being so high off the water and I lifter her over the side for the first retrieve she made that day. Well the next time it was her turn to retrieve she just waited for me to lift her over the side again. Steve said something to the affect, "It is a good thing she is so small or you would get worn out from putting her in the water before you got a limit." One of the reasons I like Steve is he finds this type of stuff that happens from time to time while hunting amusing. It didn't bother me a bit to lift her over the side. It was the first time she had hunted in a boat that size, in such big water, and over that type of set up. I have taken guys hunting who do not normally hunt quail and get livid with their poor dogs because it is not doing exactly what they want it it to. If you stick me in a new situation and start yelling at me I know it would shake my confidence and negatively affect my performance. I have to imagine it is the same with a dog.

Each year Aspen has to teach me the same lesson over and over. She usually has me straightened out by January. When September rolls around we will be hunting and I will find a beautiful patch of cover that just has to hold a bird. Aspen will run right past it. I will call her back and demand she hunt through it. She will go into it if I insist, but when she is finished and pops back out she always has the same look on her face which says, "Listen you dolt if there would have been a bird in there I would have been in there before you said anything." And the flip side is she will spend what I think is way to much time in a scrawny piece of cover and suddenly have birds flying everywhere. The lesson I learn a number of times a year is to watch and trust my dog. I really believe my dog has more innate hunting sense than I will ever have.

My best,

Don Shearer
 
Theres a reason most labs are by far the most popular hunting dog. For that matter, the most popular dog. I'll add the vote for labs... in fact, for 95% of possible discussions there ever will be on what kinda dog to get, lab is gonna be my answer.

Upland hunting is almost natrual for a dog. For an obedient dog thats already trained to a level to hunt well, its about 45 minutes work showing them what they need to upland hunt. A couple afternoons training with planted birds after that, and you've got a dog ready to upland hunt. Having taught several dozen advanced hunting dogs the skills needed to upland hunt, the hardest thing for most of them is leaving their owners side to hunt with a collar on... cause their whole life a collar on meant heel! hehe.

I would want a dog extremely steady and realibly sit on a whistle before I ever upland hunted/trained. I would also want a dog to fully understand cover and straight lines through it, before I ever asked them to do a hunt em up. Its much easier to have the 'taught' skills down pat, and expect control on the natrual ones, than to let the natrual ones (quatering and hunting) be a big part of their life and then hope to get the control. For that reason, usually I reccomend a dog be 2 and have a hunting season behind it before upland training.

I'll post out how I do upland training if anyone is intrested. travis
 
Larry,

If you want a dog that's already trained, suggest you find a local kennel that specializes in labs. look up a dog club in your area (see hrc-ukc.com) and talk to some of those folks. breeders, pros and amatuer trainers belong to these clubs.

I bought my lab from indianna. had him shipped via air freight to dulles airport in va. got him for about $500, but he was 9 weeks old. expect to spend $400 for force-fetching and more for other training.

pick up a copy of Richard A. Waltors book or video "Water Dog" or "Game Dog" and read it several times. also, check out dobbsdogs.com there are numerour training articles online.
 
Travis,

I think we must upland hunt different types of cover. Occasionally we may hunt CRP that looks like Eastern MT but for the most part we hunt tough cover where there is no straight line through it, or no reason for a dog to quarter.

I have to respectfully disagree about not upland hunting a dog until they are two. My Aspen will turn three in May now and I cannot imagine not having hunted her until this season. I do not think any amount of training could take the place of the number of hours we hunted together over the last three seasons. She retrieved her first quail and chukar at 19 weeks. Did I expect that, no not really, but I do believe you cannot under estimate how important it is to have a pup involved in smelling and hunting birds as early and often as possible. I did not hunt her hard when she was so little. Short days and short hunts since she didn't have much endurance. But I think it was worth it. I ended up with a very birdy dog. I guess there are two ways to skin a cat.

My best,

Don Shearer
 
"Straight Lines" from the reference point of you want your dog trained to take them before you put them in a situation where when you send them into cover they won't be going straight...makes since to me because if a dog never learns to take a straight line and you are happy with the lines he's forced to take when upland hunting then its likely that on birds where you need them to take a straight line to a fall they won't know how to do that....at least I "think" thats what he's saying...

I agree with you...I'm for letting the dog tell you when its ready to do something not a calendar....I've always felt like the reason that Thud was a good Phesant dog but an indifferent Quail dog was because he was five before he encountered his first ones the year we moved here......Buddy and Mike were both like Aspen having been introduced to everything from Grouse to Pheasant to Quail and Chukars and Huns their first hunting season...for sure neither of them have an alpahbet of titles next to their non existant ribbons but they are both more than capable of hunting any upland bird that I can put them on and still do a job on ducks that any "meat dog" owner could be proud of....

Steve
 
I have worked pheasants, grouse, geese, crane, and ah oh yea Ducks with one kind of dog.

A lab.

Not a Swamp Collie (golden) many are FINE hunters. Not a Brown Dog (chessie) some of the toughest retrivers.

Labs, have had 3, currently have 2.

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This has been a great thread with some interesting breeds that I have had very little contact with. Neat to see.

But for me, it is also the lab. Great duck hunter and upland gamer. I think the problem (in my mind) with a lot of great labs is that the owners (and perhaps the field trial game) have taken too much control. Let the dog hunt. Give it lots of go room. My hunting partner has one of the best flushing and hunting lab I have ever seen. It's incredible.

Oh, and I have another on the way. He's three weeks old. I can't wait!
 
yeah, thats what I meant. The downside of many dogs that are upland hunted early is a tendancey to go self employeed in cover and scent... a good thing when upland hunting, a bad thing when trying to trying to run a blind thru cover to a bird. if your expectations are to ever have a dog that will do advanced work, then your gonna be happier waiting to put a dog in that situation till after they have a solid understanding of the blind running game. Seen many a talented dog that pheasant hunted their first season, and years later they go self employeed on a blind in scent. Death to a test dog for sure, but also a lot of times a real problem in a real hunting situation. My training philisophy is its a lot better to control behavior than correct it, so I never allow anything I'll have to use pressure to fix later. Time spent fixing is time not being spent progressing. Id rather teach than correct anyday.

Never thought of waiting till a dog was 2 was a long time for anything, especially something he should be doing for the next 8 to 10 years really, really well. I wasnt saying dont hunt your dog the first season, but if you want a duck dog, with some birds on the side (like the orignal post was), personally Id put some experience on the dog before I let em upland hunt. The first season a dog hunts anything is gonna change his behaviors forever, I like it be something i control. Just like I wont let someone shoot a goose for a dog on its first few hunts until they get the cripple game down... or hunt a young dog in current... or for 7 or 8 guns... All of my dogs have hunted before they where 2, but I carefully controled their expereinces. Heck, da juice and nasty where 5 months old, didnt have a clue about watching the sky, but you could knock a duck down, and throw a rock for a splash and theyd go get them. Did they learn much? Naw, but they learned NOTHING determinetal to their eventual potiental.

Quatering cover is just a phrase for hunting the advabile cover for the gun back and forth. Its not a pattern. The type & thickness of cover only dictates how fast the dog can cover it. The side to side range will change in a sidewind, as the dogs learn how to use the wind.

My (duck) dogs stay in gun range and sit to flush and shot, my older dog understands the difference between a cripple he must chase down, and a bird I will shoot for him if he sits (even if it starts as one and becomes the other, way cool to see him chase a cripple back towards you and sit only if it flies toward you, but chase if it flies away). We started upland training simply for a game we play (the hrc grand last series is an upland test), as we dont have any quail left in this part of the country. But its such a useful skill on a duck hunt for cripples, I cant imagine having a dog that doesnt do it now. A lot of times we'll sail ducks over a 1/4 mile into wide open cut fields. Unless dead they will make it to the next advaible cover, which is the big grown up ditches that boarder the fields. Ride the dog on the 4 wheeler to the side of the ditch the wind is right for, and tell them to hunt em up... let them quater the ditch until they find the bird. Ease up the other side of the ditch as the dog works it, cause the bird will come out that side. Pretty cool to see your dog sit to flush on a wounded speck getting its second wind and flying off, dropping it on the rise, and your dog jumping back on the bike with it. travis (whose letters & ribbons are for the purpose of having better hunting dogs)
 
Travis,

You have a lot more experience training hunting dogs than I do, but I have to say that my first experience contradicts what you are saying. My dog learned a tremendous amount hunting this first season. I started him in September when he was 6 months. I shot about 25 grouse, a few woodcock over him as well as a bunch of ducks. I found that he learned more and more the more we hunted upland.

It could be because we were hunting primarily ruffed grouse which flush very easily compared to pheasants which will run a lot more; but he learned 2 things very quickly: first, if he gets too close to the bird, he won't be able to get it and second, if he doesn't move and the gun goes off; there's a good chance he'll be able to go after a bird. At the beginning of the season, he was bumping a ton of birds. He had no problem finding them, but he'd flush them before I had a shot. By the end of the season, he was holding point until I flushed the bird.
An event took place towards the end of the season where I clipped the wing of a bird and it was still alive and sent my dog to retrieve. From the dog's perspective, he captured this bird by himself and no longer needed me. So yes, this did give me a little more work to correct; but the amount he learned as well as the love of the hunt which has been instilled in him I believe will be invaluable going forward.

Not trying to start anything here, but just trying to give a different perspective.

Cheers,
 
Get with a training group before you get your pup.. Pick out what kind of pup you want.. Whatever mutt you decide to get, Lab, Wirehair, Golden or, my favorite a Chessy.. Make sue you get no less then 3 generations of Hip X-rays, there is a name for it but I can't think of it right now.. The last thing you want is a pup to brake down...
 
John is right! no matter what breed you settle on buy quality. The most important things are a birdy dog from good lines and the TRAINING EFFORT you put into your pup.
 
Don, that doesn't surprise me about Steve, I think he's an old softy at heart ; ) BTW, my dog will NOT jump from a boat. I have to put her in the water and then she'll retrieve.

I'll admit it, I demand a lot from my dog, i.e. she has to sit when I tell her (which is the same thing as stay), she has to remain still in a blind, she can't flush a bird until I'm ready to shoot, and, she has to bring it back to me. Other than that, I take a relaxed approach to dog training. I too never force fetched - I couldn't bring myself to do it. I don't have the discipline or training to do what Travis or Bill do. I wish I did.

All that aside, I truly love hunting with my dog. Others love hunting with her, she stays close, truly enjoys it and is eager to please. I can't say that about many organisms I hang around with every day.

Best, Andrew
 
There is no really good answer to this question - I like them all!! Currently I have a Golden and a Brittany. Since they are getting old I have been looking to get another dog. A Lab or another Golden would be the perfect answer but since I am a noncomformist at heart I have a deposit on a Gordon Setter puppy. I am here in south Georgia so I do not need the cold tolerance of the retrievers. Also since I am retired I plan on spending more time out west bird hunting (I have previously taken 2 year assignments in both Montana and South Dakota, so I am familiar with the areas). A versatile breed should work out for me. If not I will add another retriever after my wife gets over me getting the Gordon.

Gary
 
Thanks for all the help guys...I guess I have found how to get you guys talking. Just ask about your huntin dog. What's next, Pump v Auto...Cork v Plastic Decoys...Best all around hunting/fishing boat? This forum is great!!!
 
thanks steve, interesting, I could see the benefits of flushers for pheasants in the west, when their numbers are high. Just couldn't understand how it was done with quail when they don't run much and the dog typically needs to cover lots of ground to find a covey.
 
Mustad,

I don't know your real name, but thanks for the advice. Can I get your number so we can chat on PudelPointers. I am anxious to pick your brain on these dogs.

Thanks,
Brian
 
even among the same species....

I'll admit its been about five years since I've shot a Bobwhite but the last time I did that in Florida, (and yes here comes the age old story of my Lab found them when the pointy dogs couldn't), and those birds were running like Pheasants....

Not sure where you hunt your Quail but in the South the truly wild birds are no longer the Gentlemen that their rep says they will be...you have basically two places to hunt them....pine plantations and WMA's.....if its a Pine Plantation then the covies are few and far between and they have little in the way of escape cover other than the smilax hells and bay heads to escape to so thats where they hang out. They'll feed right on the edge of that and they've been conditioned to run back into the thick stuff the second they hear "hunters Bambi---run"....they get busted constantly by the deer and hog and turkey hunters that are in the woods from Sept to Feb. and as a result if you are going to hunt them you need to be very quiet, and be very close to the dog when he locates them because they aren't going to hold for a point unless they are in something so thick that you can't get to them to release the dog.

On the WMA's, where they are managed, the pressure on them is so high that the results are the same..find a covey out in the open and you might want to rush to the 7-11 for a power ball ticket cause thats a rare event indeed...you've obviously seen pheasants bust out of a field at half a mile when the engine shut off, and then watched another wave lift when someone slammed a door? Wild Bobwhites in the south are the same and they head straight for the nastiest stuff that they can worm their way into which isn't the kind of place that a pointy dog shines....so if you have Bobwhites where you are that can be hunted with a pointer, where they'll hold for a point and where they'll give you the time to walk in on a point then you should definately count yourself lucky because wild Bob's of that mindset are rare to the extreme....

All of the other Quail, except Mearn's, are "running machines", at least until you bust up a covey and scatter it into the thick stuff where the singles will hold....watch a covey of Valley, Gambels, or the real runners Scaled, running ahead of dogs, with the pointers stopping to point every thirty feet and you'll pretty much see little more than running quail asses and footy prints after a hard day of hunting. Pointers work of course on birds like those but they need to learn that the covies have to be busted up....some dogs learn to do that, and then to work the singles....some never do...flushers in those situations will just bull into the covies, bust them wild and then you'll have a chance....

I'm going to say that in the West that I'd rather hunt with a flusher that "kind of" knew what he was doing before a "classic" pointing dog that locks up on a point and then won't relocate without being released by the handler....in those situations I've watched as a pair of pointers did little more than point, back, move 20 feet after being released, then go through the point, back, release, move routine over and over while a covey of 100 Scaled Quail moved out of the canyon above them....

In my exerience a flushing dog will produce more birds than a pointer when the species is NEW to him, (i.e. Grouse/Woodcock dogs hunted on Western Quail the first few times), because all they have to learn is what the new bird smells like and that you want them to hunt that new stink....pointers have to learn that all of those manners they learned on species A don't work on species B and that if they change their style that someone won't be waiting to "apply correction until they vocalize" because they attempted to improvise and adapt.....

You should find someone with a good flushing dog to hunt with...I thnk you'd be surprised at how effective they can be...

Steve
 
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