I have rusty balls

Huntindave McCann

Huntindave McCann

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Yes, you read that right.

Decided to get the old "smoke pole" out and do some plinking. I never knew round lead bullets could rust. Obviously not every one was from the same "pour", these are Hornady brand. There were in a previously open box that has been in my basement for 30 or more years.



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I cleaned them up by putting them in a plastic container, covering them with vinegar and stirring them around for a few minutes. Dried them off and treated them with a shot of WD40.
I will say,,,,,,,, rusty lead was a 1st for me. Obviously they we not all from the same "pour" and one batch has some iron content in it.

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On a related note;

What is the power of choice nowadays for a traditional muzzleloader rifle (not an inline)? I am shooting a 50 cal. Thompson Center Hawkins using #11 percussion caps.

In the past I have generally used Pyrodex RS as well as pure black powder. I see several alternate powder choices out there today, but many are recommended only for in-lines using #209 shotgun primers.

Anyone have a preference or recommendation of a powder choice, for an traditional percussion action using #11 caps?
 
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Dave

That is odd. Somehow iron dust must have mixed in with lead. I have hundreds of pounds of lead (that isn't that much) at my shop and have never seen that. In fact we poured anchors Monday evening and nothing but gray chunks in my stash.

Eric
 
Lead oxidizes, though less so than iron. One of the lead oxides is reddish, I think it is/was used as a pigment.
 
SJ Fairbank said:
Lead oxidizes, though less so than iron. One of the lead oxides is reddish, I think it is/was used as a pigment.
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Given the rusty film on most of the balls, I would have expected a bit of "graying" on the other, seemingly unaffected batch in the box.

Years ago (before OSHA) "red lead" and "white lead" powders were used in the machine shop and automotive shops. The power was mixed with oil or grease to create a slurry, which could then be applied as a thin film, to one surface of a machined part. Then a mating part (such as a gear) could be rotated (in normal fashion) against the coated part.

The resulting "wipe pattern" would tell the toolmaker or the auto mechanic, exactly where those parts were actually making contact. In the case of a pinion and ring gear set, shims could be added or subtracted from one or both gears to move or relocate that point of contact. This was called "matching the gears".

Toolmakers would use a similar process to check the contact between the matching halves of a forming die set.
 
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Dave,

Can't be sure it's the lead oxide on your, um, round balls. I've seen the same stuff on really old shot from cut open paper shells that got moldy. I wouldn't think shot from the 30's-40's would have contained much iron, but who knows.

When I was a kid my grandfather caulked the boats with white lead paste. Pretty sure it was used to glaze windows as well. With all the exposure I got, I'm lucky I can speek Inglesh.
 

GOEX, INC. FFFg SUPERFINE BLACK RIFLE POWDER


80gr powder charge used in my TC Hawkin 50cal. flintlock, with round ball barrel. Has worked just fine since the 1970's.




my 2 cents
 
Vince Pagliaroli said:
GOEX, INC. FFFg SUPERFINE BLACK RIFLE POWDER


80gr powder charge used in my TC Hawkin 50cal. flintlock, with round ball barrel. Has worked just fine since the 1970's.


my 2 cents
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Vince,
Thanks
Nice to know that works for you, even though it differs from what GOEX recommends in their charts. The business was sold to new owners and from what I understand just went back into production. It will be interesting to see what if any, changes the new owners make.
 
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Dave,

When PA began their flintlock season way back when. The only gun shop, and muzzle loader "expert & hunter" (Patton's Powder Horn) in our area highly touted that powder, and that charge. He had the proof to back it up, and we have taken his advice ever since.

Good to read that GOEX is back in business.

FFFg came in 16oz. (454 GR.) can marked GOEX, INC. Moosic, PA The Standard of Performance Made In This Same Plant Since 1912.

From what my friends from back home tell me black powder shoots are very popular. In NY when folks see my flintlock they just shake their heads.


It was good to read yer post as I'm thinkin about using the real Smoke Pole this season, not just the inline. Since cataract surgery got good eyes to put to proper use. Open Sights!



Best regards
Vince
 
Dave,

My choice has always been black powder. I have always used FF in a 50 or 54 caliber. I always thought FFF was for smaller bore rifles and pistols. Good luck.
 
Dave,
Interesting. Never seen that before, but have heard of red lead pigment. Was curious, so I did an internet search and apparently there are different chemical compositions of lead oxide which produce differing colors. Most older lead I've seen either picked up a dark coat or if really old (like a civil war bullet), a whitish covering.
 
Vince Pagliaroli said:
GOEX, INC. FFFg SUPERFINE BLACK RIFLE POWDER

80gr powder charge used in my TC Hawkin 50cal. flintlock, with round ball barrel. Has worked just fine since the 1970's.

my 2 cents
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Vince,
Just wanted to double check your load. Are you sure it "FFF" and not "FF" ?

Reason I ask is, usually "FFF" in only used in the smaller calibers and pistols. In fact 30 grains of "FFF" is what I use in my Old Army .44 revolver.
I have one can of true black powder in FFF and 2 cans of Pyrodex FFF on hand, but have never used FFF in my .50cal rifle.
 
Dave,

YES for sure FFFg. in .50 cal TC Hawken.

I do not mess around when it comes to powder and ammo.

Still have one of the cans, and that is what I use, my cousin used, and two other hunting partners. Powder, patch & ball and a good German flint.

Mr. Patton swore by that load. Killed a Brown Bear with it, and many other big game animals as well as whitetails. If I recall it had to do with how fast it ignites and burns. He told us "anything over 80gr. is a waste of powder". He knew and we did not, so we did as he said.

Open sights on a rest we would hit the bottom of a foam coffee cup at 100yds with that load. Taken deer with it and had some hang fires, wet pan powder and misses for a host of reasons. All of which had my ticker going cuz I still hunt.

IF YOU DO NOT FEEL SAFE WITH THIS LOAD. DO NOT USE!!!!
 
Vince Pagliaroli said:
Dave,

YES for sure FFFg. in .50 cal TC Hawken.

IF YOU DO NOT FEEL SAFE WITH THIS LOAD. DO NOT USE!!!!
Click to expand...


Vince,
You are right about that,,,, for any load.

I will say I am using a much heavier projectile so I'll probably stick with FF powder. Round ball = 175/178 grains, versus a soft lead conical = 256 grains (note; NOT a TC maxi ball which comes in at 370 grains)

For anyone who may be following this thread, the image below is a screen shot direct from the GOEX web site. round ball loads on the left, conical loads on the right



loadcharts.jpg
 
Dave,

I understand your reasoning, and sticking with FF. Good sound choice.

Round ball was the only legal projectile in PA the first years of the deer flintlock hunting season. It is also the only projectile I have ever used in the TC .50 Hawken Flintlock. Once sabots were allowed barrels were made for them, and few with round ball barrels. I did not know the difference until a friend that builds Flintlocks checked the barrel of my TC.


Also is there a difference in ignition between a Flintlock, and a Caplock gun?

Other than cap ignition is much more frequent, and more "modern". Flintlock is slower ignition. KA - wait for it - BOOM!


I do believe that PA is one of the only states that still mandate Flintlock (No Caplock) for that season. Mr. Patton made his choice for a reason. At that time there were lots of Wildcat things going on in all types of hunting rifles. Now it kinda makes me think he was part of that. A hunter has to have confidence, and a Big Set to hunt Brown Bear with a old style smokepole. No thanks.

Please keep me posted as to your progress and success.
 
Vince Pagliaroli said:
Dave,

I understand your reasoning, and sticking with FF. Good sound choice.

Round ball was the only legal projectile in PA the first years of the deer flintlock hunting season. It is also the only projectile I have ever used in the TC .50 Hawken Flintlock. Once sabots were allowed barrels were made for them, and few with round ball barrels. I did not know the difference until a friend that builds Flintlocks checked the barrel of my TC.


Also is there a difference in ignition between a Flintlock, and a Caplock gun?

Other than cap ignition is much more frequent, and more "modern". Flintlock is slower ignition. KA - wait for it - BOOM!


I do believe that PA is one of the only states that still mandate Flintlock (No Caplock) for that season. Mr. Patton made his choice for a reason. At that time there were lots of Wildcat things going on in all types of hunting rifles. Now it kinda makes me think he was part of that. A hunter has to have confidence, and a Big Set to hunt Brown Bear with a old style smokepole. No thanks.

Please keep me posted as to your progress and success.
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Vince,
You will have to excuse my ignorance, I have only shot muzzeloaders since 1975 and have no idea who the gentlemen is that you refer to. Has he any published pressure data? If so, a link to his data would be an interesting read.

My original question was NOT in regards to any specific load recipe. My query was asking for recommendations in the way of a Black powder or Pyrodex alternative. Perhaps that was not as clear as I intended with what I wrote as a whole. As I said, I am also aware that many of the newer alternatives are intended only for "in-line rifles" using #209 primers. Thus those powders would not be of interest.
 
Dave,

I've been shooting and using muzzleloaders the same years as you have. So there is no ignorance involved. I was just bringing up the difference between Flintlock and Caplock. I've only used Caplock once in Ohio years ago.

I'm not aware of any data from Mr. Patton's charge use, etc. At the time he was the only knowable gun shop in our area, and if ya wanted guns, supplies and info that's were folks went. He was more a local legend than anything.

One of the only, if not the only PA Game Land where the first muzzleloading season was allowed was a 45min. drive.


I have never used Pyrodex in the TC .50 Flintlock Hawken, only FFFg black powder. So far so good. Only had to use a ball puller once, and that was my fault.

That said, since I have a CVA .50 Optima for use in NY muzzleloader season I have not used the TC Hawken in six seasons. Might be time this year.


Until you brought up this post I was not even certain that Black Powder, and supplies for flintlocks was even being produced. Everything seems to be moving in the opposite direction. With a lead bullet ban soon to be put in place in many places the alternatives and loads will most likely change. I saw the prices for "non lead no tox" inline bullets last year at some stores. YIKES! Target shooting and hunting will be very costly.

Better use those no longer rusty round balls ASAP. [smile]
 
That is the same load I used for many years in my 50 cal CVA Mountain rifle with 1-66 twist, just for round balls. It was deadly out to 80 yards and accounted for well over 50 deer until the barrel finally was shot out. Black powder started getting harder and harder to find so I had to switch to Triple Seven powder several years ago for my 50 cal TC Black Diamond inline. You need a hot 209 primer to ignite this but it shoots much cleaner than the old black powder. Never did care much for the pyrodex powder. Yes that Goex black powder is pretty reliable, if you keep out the moisture. I still use it some in my old cap and ball 6 shooter and my 36 cal squirrel rifle.
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black powder cans.jpg
 
Vince Pagliaroli said:
With a lead bullet ban soon to be put in place in many places the alternatives and loads will most likely change. I saw the prices for "non lead no tox" inline bullets last year at some stores. YIKES! Target shooting and hunting will be very costly.

Better use those no longer rusty round balls ASAP. [smile]
Click to expand...

Barnes has an all-copper sabot that's about $45 for two dozen. No idea is anyone makes an all-copper ball, or how that would perform on game. I know lots of folks who use the Barnes all copper bullets in center fire deer, moose, and elk rifles and swear by them, but they are more expensive than lead.
 
I have done that many times with white lead. That stuff worked great. I haven't set up any gears for over 45 years. (don't care to either).
 
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