kind of plywood?

Bob, I'm at a complete loss... your first example as an endorsement for fir plywood is a boat that failed and almost killed you.
 
Enough of the vacation Phil, march down or up to the big box store and get your ply. You have boat to build and we need pictures. Dave McCann posted a link to Baltic birch Ply. Good strong stuff. Now at the big box store ask them where the floor underlayment is. This what to look for in 1/4" ply. It should have at least five ply's. Baltic Birch also has five ply's . The point on using this Ply is no voids, waterpoof glue. It is a little bit cheaper about $27 for a 4' by 8' sheet. They also sell it in 4' by 5' sheets. The big box store has a "M" in it's name.

The forest Products Lab tested moisture penetration in wood over a period of time using different covering materials. Epoxy, Paint, Varnish, Linseed oil, ETC. The winner is...... Three coats of Epoxy The surprising second finish or high on the list was Paraffin wax. I don't have link to that study right now but is worth looking up. One of the worst "sniff sniff" is boiled linseed oil.

John Wesford recommends on the boats he designs three coats of oil primer followed by three coats of oil enamel. The bottoms epoxy and fiber glass.

What ever you do we want pictures.....
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Why stop there? He can have all the cardboard he wants from the pile out behind the big box store - I'm sure if he waxed it really well it would hold up great.
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Thats what I was thinking Todd Welcome The link gives Phil all the information he needs. A good wax job.
T
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I had a wonderful baby boy, who is 22 months old now! Braiden Michael Stockdill

As for the birch, it's been outside in a tarp tent the whole time, and still looks like brand new. No checking, warping or anything. There's even some scrap pieces laying on the ground that haven't swollen or changed in any other way. I was new to this forum and was excited about building a boat and liked the Devlin's and was very gung ho, and then, life happened.
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I was wrong about the argument anyway, it was if you could build the boat for under 1K. Yes life happens, I've seen that myself.

T
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Yes, that was it! I'm sitting at under $200 to date, and figure on another $300 or so to finish it the way I want it. It will get glassed inside and out, if that makes you feel any better about it. And I, unlike you, do not count my time as money. I make my money at work.
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Derek, I don't count my time as money.

Years and years ago, I built a little pirogue and my mom helped me glass it. My mother is in her mid-70s now and she glassed one boat in her life and will never help anyone build a boat again. I cherish that little boat, not only because of the birds I killed out of it, but also because my mother helped me glass it when I was a young punk and needed a hand. I built it the best I could and it has lasted because of that and I still have it and I'll have it forever if I choose to. I'll always remember my mother sweating her ass off glassing the only boat she ever had glassed. My snowgoose took forever to build and it is almost perfect in my eye (I'll happily list the imperfections). In taking forever to build, I took a lot of hours away from my wife and she carried me while I built it. I'll probably have that boat forever although I could have lost my wife a few years back. Time is precious and I owe it to her and the time she dedicated to me. Had I built those boats differently with the plan to throw them out at the end of their useful life, what would I have when they were gone? Surely I'll remember the sacrifices that others made to help me. For me, however, keeping the things around is an appropriate way to cherish the contribution of others as well as mine. I like hand built stuff, stuff that people worked to build. I like my stuff, I like it to do its job, I like it to look good and I like it because it is my stuff that I and others have worked hard for it. I don't and won't ever understand building something like a boat that carries you safely over cold water and away from your loved ones out of anything other than the best materials. Yes, I value my time, I value it a whole bunch and I value the time and effort of my loved ones. Cost of a few bucks of plywood is nothing compared to the time, I know that for sure.

T
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Tod,

I do apologize for saying that your time is money. Your story is great, I'm glad you had a mother that would do something like that. That is very cool. I too, value my time with my family, and cherish each moment.

I do respect your opinion and am glad you are a part of this forum, you bring experience and knowledge. I'm not trying to be friends or tell you your right, just that I respect your input, even when I don't agree. I actually find some of these threads quite entertaining!

Oh, and I'm still going to go ahead and finish my broadbill, but no more promises as to when. ;)
 
The driver of the boat was responsible for the damage of the vessel. On that day the right move would have been to turn back at the ramp. Being gung ho and wanting to have a great hunt I pushed on. The ice was black 5\8 to 3\4 inch thick fresh water not salt.
I have repaired fiberglass boats damaged when they made a run in brackish salt water ice that was only 1\4 inch. I still use fiberglass to build and repair boats?
I should not run boats not made of welded aluminum in thick ice 3\4 of a mile. That is what I concluded,
The spec for a marsh boat is all we are looking at.
Not an Ice Breaker.
Knowing that I told you the history of the skiff at least twice, I included it for all to read so you would not have to for me. It gave good service many times. It failed twice. Once on the highway at 60 and once on water that was frozen. (It made many trips in the brackish ice that caused no damage) We all have limits.
I feel comfortable stating that I would have damaged many other boat choices that day if they were the one I used to make that same run.
I will and have used the wood material again to build boats.
I will not drive them thru thick ice with a big motor or flip them off trailers on the highway and expect them to last.


Bob
 
Bob, I'm at a complete loss... your first example as an endorsement for fir plywood is a boat that failed and almost killed you.
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I've re-read Bob's post about the boats he has experience with several times, and still don't see where he wrote that his boat failed and almost killed him? If this site had it, I'd insert the scratching my head smiley here...
 
If the Vermont winter isin't too long, then this summer I hope to build a 13 foot long derivitive of a boat formally called the 6 Hour Canoe. I intend to use 1/4" exterior and coat it inside and out with epoxy. If I have half as much luck with it as I did building my son's 6 hour canoe (1/4" A/C 10 years ago) then I will be happy.

John
 
Hi Bob. 2 thoughts:

1) Love that black and white photo of the decoys. Who did the buffies? I like their attitude.....

2) The photos of the uncomplicated plywood boats are great. I love the simplicity of the interiors. Cleats on the frames so that the deck is clear and clean. The triple layer frames on the lumber yard 18 and the rod holders mounted on what I assume is the backing block for a butt joint? All touches designed to make life simple for the home builder, yet strong enough to safely deliver one's self and family to where you want to be. Flat bottomed with ample rocker for easy beaching. Love it!

John Bourbon
 
Some people only read what they want to read ! In the middle 70's a good friend was bringing his head boat from port jefferson to Patchogue LI. and ran into some one eighth inch window pane ice right outside of the river. In a few hundred feet he cut almost completely thru the five quarter clear fir planking. I ran out with my 16 ft ac fir ply garvey [my eel rig]which was glassed on the outside and brought him a gas emergency pump and broke ice in front of him till he got to our yard for an emergency haul and some emergency re-planking I guess if his boat was planked with bs1088 ocume this wouldnt have happened! Here are some pictures of two of my old garveys built out of the forbidden material the one at the dock was my eel dredge rig and the other one, my gently used raking boat. These boats were half inch sides and three quarter bottons we usually built these boats in our off time with lousy weather we didnt know about epoxy back then or 5200 either, but used big tubes of 3m pl 400 construction adhesive this stuff was incredible in its day and probably still viable today. Two layers of one and a half ounce mat on the outside set in polyester and winter ice was no obstacle until the boat just rode up on it without falling thru. For you Montauk boys, that sportfish next to my eel rig was the Akin familie's legendary 'NIKA" Now Im showing my age, ehough for now. Rich
View attachment garveys_10001 (Small).jpgView attachment garveys_10002 (Small).jpg
 
The driver of the boat was responsible for the damage of the vessel. On that day the right move would have been to turn back at the ramp. Being gung ho and wanting to have a great hunt I pushed on. The ice was black 5\8 to 3\4 inch thick fresh water not salt.
I have repaired fiberglass boats damaged when they made a run in brackish salt water ice that was only 1\4 inch. I still use fiberglass to build and repair boats?
I should not run boats not made of welded aluminum in thick ice 3\4 of a mile. That is what I concluded,
The spec for a marsh boat is all we are looking at.
Not an Ice Breaker.
Knowing that I told you the history of the skiff at least twice, I included it for all to read so you would not have to for me. It gave good service many times. It failed twice. Once on the highway at 60 and once on water that was frozen. (It made many trips in the brackish ice that caused no damage) We all have limits.
I feel comfortable stating that I would have damaged many other boat choices that day if they were the one I used to make that same run.
I will and have used the wood material again to build boats.
I will not drive them thru thick ice with a big motor or flip them off trailers on the highway and expect them to last.


Bob
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Bob, I like you very much and you are a great guy, you have lots of experiance with things that I don't and you have taught me and a lot over the years, but I question your objectivity here.

I did not know that your gray skiff was the one until you pointed it out. The point that your boat failed under use is the reason I promote building with the best materials (which includes the best plywood, epoxy to seal it and the best cloth). If there was a guarentee that the boat would fail on the trailer in the driveway sure, I'm with you - save a few bucks and dumpster it when it fails (not my way, but I can see it). Things are not that tidy as that and your example points out that things tend to fail at the worst possible time.

Ice is ice, it is routine in the winter. Boats don't fail in ice very often, otherwise there wouldn't be that many of us here to argue, since we all do it. You can blame the hull failing on your poor judgement - sure I see that if your poor judgement includes trying to break 3/4" ice with a painted plywood hull. Were the hull different the outcome would be different and you would be catching blackfish from the boat this Spring (if we had a season :(. It isn't bravado to say I've broken lots of freshwater ice as thick as my boat is heavy enough to break at at as high a rate of speed as possible and I've never had a scratch into the structure of the boat. Adding it up, it is probably 100 or more miles of clear freshwater ice from skim to as thick as I can break by running the boat up on the ice and letting the weight do what hp can't. I don't take a lot of risks if I don't have to, breaking ice is routine and doesn't hurt duck boats very often and has never hurt mine.

It is clear that you can't be convinced if almost dying in a boat that failed can't convince you. I'll stop trying.

T
 
Some people only read what they want to read ! In the middle 70's a good friend was bringing his head boat from port jefferson to Patchogue LI. and ran into some one eighth inch window pane ice right outside of the river. In a few hundred feet he cut almost completely thru the five quarter clear fir planking. I ran out with my 16 ft ac fir ply garvey [my eel rig]which was glassed on the outside and brought him a gas emergency pump and broke ice in front of him till he got to our yard for an emergency haul and some emergency re-planking I guess if his boat was planked with bs1088 ocume this wouldnt have happened! Here are some pictures of two of my old garveys built out of the forbidden material the one at the dock was my eel dredge rig and the other one, my gently used raking boat. These boats were half inch sides and three quarter bottons we usually built these boats in our off time with lousy weather we didnt know about epoxy back then or 5200 either, but used big tubes of 3m pl 400 construction adhesive this stuff was incredible in its day and probably still viable today. Two layers of one and a half ounce mat on the outside set in polyester and winter ice was no obstacle until the boat just rode up on it without falling thru. For you Montauk boys, that sportfish next to my eel rig was the Akin familie's legendary 'NIKA" Now Im showing my age, ehough for now. Rich
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Come on Rich, in the 70's fir plywood and polyester was they best there was and the fir plywood was great stuff because it was old growth. You choose to build different than that now in about every way.

Yep breaking a little ice is no biggie, I agree.

T
 
Then again I now hunt over plastic decoys with a modern semi auto. Doesnt mean hand carved cedar or cork decoys shot over by an old side by side doesnt work, or isnt a lot of fun!
 
Tod
you are very nice to say that and I have no "friendship" issue or shortage of equal respect or learning from your work. As I believe you have recognized.
I still stand on my experience.
If Ice is the spec issue the material I would choose is welded aluminum over all others except steel. Even More So if it is fresh water ice which, in my experience working in it, is another animal from the salt water stuff.
I would not use most boats for what I tried that day, knowing what I learned.
But If I covered an A\C fir hull with the same glass cloth and kevlar that I understand you used on your hull I would follow right beside you knowing we were on equal ground even if mine was painted inside with watercolor. The exterior fabric and resin is doing all the work in that case fighting the abrasion. Not the ply which is simply acting as a core for the shape you built. If you doubled the cloth and repeated it inside I would feel fine using balsa or foam and that is how most glass boats get the incredible panel rigidity achieved in todays builds, as you know, using the I beam web concept or stress skin principle to resist deflection.
No doubt in my mind that Birch or Luan laminated to the same thickness and then covered in cloth would pass the abrasion test if that was all that we were looking for.
But the small marsh boat is not going to see that use and this is way off the original question in a "my boat is more tough than needed way".
Over kill if you want it is OK and Great but not required for this assignment.
I can and do live in the broad limits of the types I showed for the jobs they can be reasonably asked to do, and have done.

Bob
 
Trying not to stir this pot anymore than it has already been stirred. There is an organization called the APA Engineered Wood Association I met them at their booth at the Ibex show ten years or so ago. Ibex is to the boat building industry what SEMA or PRI is to the auto industry. APA has an interesting web site and can clear up a lot of questions about the fittness of various plywoods manufactured by their members for certain applications. By the way in looking thru some of my old files I came across some specs on the ocume ply we buy. The BS? [BS as in BS1088] only seems to specify production standards and glue specifications doesnt say much about fitness for any given application.And I may add that it rates Ocume wood as a "non durable wood". Of course we knew this for years as, if you dont seal it up real good it will literally rot before your eyes! Think about the american stuff guys its a lot better than people will lead you to believe, and a lot less money. Rich
 
Trying not to stir this pot anymore than it has already been stirred. There is an organization called the APA Engineered Wood Association I met them at their booth at the Ibex show ten years or so ago. Ibex is to the boat building industry what SEMA or PRI is to the auto industry. APA has an interesting web site and can clear up a lot of questions about the fittness of various plywoods manufactured by their members for certain applications. By the way in looking thru some of my old files I came across some specs on the ocume ply we buy. The BS? [BS as in BS1088] only seems to specify production standards and glue specifications doesnt say much about fitness for any given application.And I may add that it rates Ocume wood as a "non durable wood". Of course we knew this for years as, if you dont seal it up real good it will literally rot before your eyes! Think about the american stuff guys its a lot better than people will lead you to believe, and a lot less money. Rich
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Yep, on Okoume that is old news here, we have went round and round with that before. That is one of the reasons I used Meranti for the hull of the snowgoose and would use synthetics in the future. Main thing to remember is that the designer of the boats (Devlin) insists on Okoume (also Meranti in recent years) for specific reasons beyond simple rot resistance. Devlin does a good job describing why he makes the choices he does in his book.
 
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