kind of plywood?
- Thread starter Phil Nowack
- Start date
rich scheffer
Well-known member
Todd , Guess what? Its not about you! This is for the other guys! Rich
Bob B
Well-known member
Tod,
The reason I posted is because I completely disagree with your take on the subject and built my first two boats which proved it to me as a beginner. Not being enough to just say I did it, Earl Brockway built hundreds of boats and they were all able to give very good service life to the users. No epoxy. Same with the lumberyard skiffs, ladybug skiffs, and the copies. Kara's are built with out glass inside either and float just fine. So do the Sanford boxes. See the posts and the hunting pictures.
I have no problem with using A/C fir for a first boat and I have no problem with a beginner doing the same. Your perseption of checking and deffects do not cause the boat to not float. You are welcome to chose a different material to build with. But you can not state that your failures make the record of others some how wrong.
There are two year round floating examples within two miles of my house and countless ones on trailers that fish and clam and go to the beach all summer long.
Build with what you like.
I will do the same and say I have built with fir, with no epoxy and with it. It checked when it wasnt covered in glass. Big deal. The boat that is stored in the garage is 12 years old and not going away because of it.
The 18 foot lumberyard skiff down the road will fish its 5th season for my buddy. No epoxy inside, just paint. Sits in the water all year except 2 mos. after the late season.
Sam and Rens boats are fine.
I think Earls boats are fine and they work. They get you on the water on a budget for a lot longer than 5 years,some are over 30. They sell for the price of the materials on the open market, and don't sit long when they come up around here.
Works for me, my kids, and many others.
If I build something with materials I get wholesale or free at work it does not mean I would not feel the same about the ones I have referenced here, or invalidate my opinion as you tried to state about Riches work in FL and experience on LI.
For a small marsh boat it would be my first choice, and has been many times.
Bob
The reason I posted is because I completely disagree with your take on the subject and built my first two boats which proved it to me as a beginner. Not being enough to just say I did it, Earl Brockway built hundreds of boats and they were all able to give very good service life to the users. No epoxy. Same with the lumberyard skiffs, ladybug skiffs, and the copies. Kara's are built with out glass inside either and float just fine. So do the Sanford boxes. See the posts and the hunting pictures.
I have no problem with using A/C fir for a first boat and I have no problem with a beginner doing the same. Your perseption of checking and deffects do not cause the boat to not float. You are welcome to chose a different material to build with. But you can not state that your failures make the record of others some how wrong.
There are two year round floating examples within two miles of my house and countless ones on trailers that fish and clam and go to the beach all summer long.
Build with what you like.
I will do the same and say I have built with fir, with no epoxy and with it. It checked when it wasnt covered in glass. Big deal. The boat that is stored in the garage is 12 years old and not going away because of it.
The 18 foot lumberyard skiff down the road will fish its 5th season for my buddy. No epoxy inside, just paint. Sits in the water all year except 2 mos. after the late season.
Sam and Rens boats are fine.
I think Earls boats are fine and they work. They get you on the water on a budget for a lot longer than 5 years,some are over 30. They sell for the price of the materials on the open market, and don't sit long when they come up around here.
Works for me, my kids, and many others.
If I build something with materials I get wholesale or free at work it does not mean I would not feel the same about the ones I have referenced here, or invalidate my opinion as you tried to state about Riches work in FL and experience on LI.
For a small marsh boat it would be my first choice, and has been many times.
Bob
Bob, Nice try to make it a personality flaw of mine that I use the best stuff because I like it to last, perform well and look good all the while. I have a cornucopia of personality flaws (enjoying arguing is one of them), but I'm not willing to accept your claim that because I build my stuff out of the best possible materials to last as long as possible, look good and perform well that it is my problem. You have made plenty of under your breath comments over the years about "workboat finishes" and now "devlin yachts" - I think I understand where you are coming from better now.
T
Dennis Smith
Active member
I have built a layout boat with exterior grade plywood and I have had no problems. Check out Gator Boats wooden boat plans, http://www.gatorboats.com/Duckhunter-Boat-Plans.htm. They use plywood you get at the local lumber store. It may give you some ideas for your plans.
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Bob B
Well-known member
Your right Tod
I am mean and should not post in the sandbox because I use fir plywood and don't epoxy coat every boat I built inside and out. And they worked.
Rich should not post because he builds boats every day and chooses fir for some of his work and logged countless hours in fir work boats with little or no epoxy. And they worked.
My writing is full of hidden agendas to cover my dislike of your devlin and how you built it and how it looks and performs and smells and catches clams.
This, all over a marsh boat that will see a few months work a year and live in a giant barn for the off season.
Oh God what was I thinking?
I throw myself at the feet of the moderators to be banned for disagreeing over ply wood and weather or not A/C could work for that requirement.
I also shoot a ruger without problems, have carved black cork, and once thought about a spinner or two, not to mention I just might admit to shooting at a pen raised rooster or looking at a post about a hybrid on the Fuge. I have even used bait in a trout stream.
Nasty, I know.
Bob
I am mean and should not post in the sandbox because I use fir plywood and don't epoxy coat every boat I built inside and out. And they worked.
Rich should not post because he builds boats every day and chooses fir for some of his work and logged countless hours in fir work boats with little or no epoxy. And they worked.
My writing is full of hidden agendas to cover my dislike of your devlin and how you built it and how it looks and performs and smells and catches clams.
This, all over a marsh boat that will see a few months work a year and live in a giant barn for the off season.
Oh God what was I thinking?
I throw myself at the feet of the moderators to be banned for disagreeing over ply wood and weather or not A/C could work for that requirement.
I also shoot a ruger without problems, have carved black cork, and once thought about a spinner or two, not to mention I just might admit to shooting at a pen raised rooster or looking at a post about a hybrid on the Fuge. I have even used bait in a trout stream.
Nasty, I know.
Bob
Derek and Xena
Active member
Well, I guess I'm doing this all wrong. I'd better start over on all my projects.
I carve my decoys with pink foam (how girly), and am working on building a broadbill (with a pink foam bow) and a sanford box, both with baltic birch underlayment from a big box store. I also bought my epoxy from US Composites (how cheap). Oh yeah, I've been doing my fillets with sawdust from the garage floor run through a pasta strainer. Not to mention that I still have that trusty 'ol wind powered flapper, and it's going to get flocked this year (how horrible).
I carve my decoys with pink foam (how girly), and am working on building a broadbill (with a pink foam bow) and a sanford box, both with baltic birch underlayment from a big box store. I also bought my epoxy from US Composites (how cheap). Oh yeah, I've been doing my fillets with sawdust from the garage floor run through a pasta strainer. Not to mention that I still have that trusty 'ol wind powered flapper, and it's going to get flocked this year (how horrible).
I like fishing with live bait, I don't like putting worms on the hook, though.
What kind of hybrid on the 'fuge? Pintail x Mallard? Brewer's duck? I love those.
I will also say that I'm impressed with your hyperbole, I didn't think you were much for that stuff.
T
Derek and Xena
Active member
I had a wonderful baby boy, who is 22 months old now! Braiden Michael Stockdill
As for the birch, it's been outside in a tarp tent the whole time, and still looks like brand new. No checking, warping or anything. There's even some scrap pieces laying on the ground that haven't swollen or changed in any other way. I was new to this forum and was excited about building a boat and liked the Devlin's and was very gung ho, and then, life happened.
As for the birch, it's been outside in a tarp tent the whole time, and still looks like brand new. No checking, warping or anything. There's even some scrap pieces laying on the ground that haven't swollen or changed in any other way. I was new to this forum and was excited about building a boat and liked the Devlin's and was very gung ho, and then, life happened.
Derek and Xena
Active member
Yes, that was it! I'm sitting at under $200 to date, and figure on another $300 or so to finish it the way I want it. It will get glassed inside and out, if that makes you feel any better about it. And I, unlike you, do not count my time as money. I make my money at work.
Derek, I don't count my time as money.
Years and years ago, I built a little pirogue and my mom helped me glass it. My mother is in her mid-70s now and she glassed one boat in her life and will never help anyone build a boat again. I cherish that little boat, not only because of the birds I killed out of it, but also because my mother helped me glass it when I was a young punk and needed a hand. I built it the best I could and it has lasted because of that and I still have it and I'll have it forever if I choose to. I'll always remember my mother sweating her ass off glassing the only boat she ever had glassed. My snowgoose took forever to build and it is almost perfect in my eye (I'll happily list the imperfections). In taking forever to build, I took a lot of hours away from my wife and she carried me while I built it. I'll probably have that boat forever although I could have lost my wife a few years back. Time is precious and I owe it to her and the time she dedicated to me. Had I built those boats differently with the plan to throw them out at the end of their useful life, what would I have when they were gone? Surely I'll remember the sacrifices that others made to help me. For me, however, keeping the things around is an appropriate way to cherish the contribution of others as well as mine. I like hand built stuff, stuff that people worked to build. I like my stuff, I like it to do its job, I like it to look good and I like it because it is my stuff that I and others have worked hard for it. I don't and won't ever understand building something like a boat that carries you safely over cold water and away from your loved ones out of anything other than the best materials. Yes, I value my time, I value it a whole bunch and I value the time and effort of my loved ones. Cost of a few bucks of plywood is nothing compared to the time, I know that for sure.
T
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Phil Nowack
Well-known member
Thanks for all the lively discussion on this topic! I just got home from a weekend of "Camping" at Yellow River Forest State Park.... a balmy 15 degrees this morning when we got up...interesting reading.....
My next question... Which is better ... Ford or Chevy??? Naw.. just kidding ... the right answer is DODGE RAM with a Cummins!
My next question... Which is better ... Ford or Chevy??? Naw.. just kidding ... the right answer is DODGE RAM with a Cummins!
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Wispete
Well-known member
Enough of the vacation Phil, march down or up to the big box store and get your ply. You have boat to build and we need pictures. Dave McCann posted a link to Baltic birch Ply. Good strong stuff. Now at the big box store ask them where the floor underlayment is. This what to look for in 1/4" ply. It should have at least five ply's. Baltic Birch also has five ply's . The point on using this Ply is no voids, waterpoof glue. It is a little bit cheaper about $27 for a 4' by 8' sheet. They also sell it in 4' by 5' sheets. The big box store has a "M" in it's name.
The forest Products Lab tested moisture penetration in wood over a period of time using different covering materials. Epoxy, Paint, Varnish, Linseed oil, ETC. The winner is...... Three coats of Epoxy The surprising second finish or high on the list was Paraffin wax. I don't have link to that study right now but is worth looking up. One of the worst "sniff sniff" is boiled linseed oil.
John Wesford recommends on the boats he designs three coats of oil primer followed by three coats of oil enamel. The bottoms epoxy and fiber glass.
What ever you do we want pictures.....
The forest Products Lab tested moisture penetration in wood over a period of time using different covering materials. Epoxy, Paint, Varnish, Linseed oil, ETC. The winner is...... Three coats of Epoxy The surprising second finish or high on the list was Paraffin wax. I don't have link to that study right now but is worth looking up. One of the worst "sniff sniff" is boiled linseed oil.
John Wesford recommends on the boats he designs three coats of oil primer followed by three coats of oil enamel. The bottoms epoxy and fiber glass.
What ever you do we want pictures.....
Bob B
Well-known member
Had to look up Hyperbole so I knew what was being said.
"a deliberate exaggeration used for effect."
No exaggeration in any part that I can find.
Just examples of boats that worked using the material that was asked about for the time that was required. Here are the requested pictures (all DHBP reposts except the lumber yard which were taken yesterday)
Ones I built or have worked on or fished in.
Second 16' Dory I built around 1993 following the ideas of the Brockway skiff incorporating some details from other articles and builders.
Hull was 1\2 A\C ply on the bottom and 3\8 on the sides. Solid stock was 1x spruce gunnel and 2x DFir from the local lumber yard. This hull followed #1, a more close Brockway copy I sold after 4 years.
It fished all the waters around Watch Hill and Fishers Island and made the trip to Montauk 3 times on nice summer days. It was destroyed by driving it thru fresh water ice for over 3\4 of a mile on a late December hunt. The ice cut slices on the sides down the length of the hull. I did not repair it since the gunnel had been damaged the year before when it flipped off a trailer on RT 91 at 60 mph in Ma heading to a jobsite on the CT river to set 400 yds of silt boom when the axle broke on the expansion joints in Springfield. It was loaded into a truck and finished the job.
It served as primary delivery for 3 hunters and their gear for all its service life. Plain latex paint inside and out. No glass.
This Kara was built in 99 and is sheathed with cloth on the outside and latex paint on the inside. It hunts from october till Jan and sits outside during that time. It hangs in the barn the rest of the year. It has a cover made of A\C that is painted with latex to keep the rain out. I sponge it out after a hunt.
This box is two seasons old and is covered outside with glass and inside with Pettit. Floated John for his first duck and I expect to hunt it a long time. A\C 1\4 inch. Just bought its sister from NJ built exactly the same but has Parker on the inside.
This 16' Brockway is Old. I will check the date on the hull tag this week but Earl has been gone since 96 and he built it.
1\2 inch sides and 3\4 inch bottom. No tape or glass. Just paint. Used to move boats up to 45 feet from the mooring to the seaport and back (3 miles), and as a tender for the owner.
This is my friends Lumber Yard 18 he bought in 2004. It is in the water on a mooring all year except for 2 to 3 months.
It has rot. In the spruce 2x used for the frame sides. I will replace them with Douglas Fir 2x this spring and this will keep it fishing and hunting Long Island sound till the owner wants to sell it. It is painted with Oil Paint on the bottom and was soaked with thompsons water seal inside for three years and then painted after that to look pretty for his wife when he takes her to the beach.
All boats built with Fir and doing what their owners need.
If you have marine ply near you and want to use it do so. If you dont then A\C Fir will make a boat that works if you need it to.
I dont have any building experience with birch ply in boats but have a rotten interior bulk head to repair in a 120,000+ dollar sail boat that got water on it from a leaking deck fitting. Guess what is going to replace it?
Bob
"a deliberate exaggeration used for effect."
No exaggeration in any part that I can find.
Just examples of boats that worked using the material that was asked about for the time that was required. Here are the requested pictures (all DHBP reposts except the lumber yard which were taken yesterday)
Ones I built or have worked on or fished in.
Second 16' Dory I built around 1993 following the ideas of the Brockway skiff incorporating some details from other articles and builders.
Hull was 1\2 A\C ply on the bottom and 3\8 on the sides. Solid stock was 1x spruce gunnel and 2x DFir from the local lumber yard. This hull followed #1, a more close Brockway copy I sold after 4 years.
It fished all the waters around Watch Hill and Fishers Island and made the trip to Montauk 3 times on nice summer days. It was destroyed by driving it thru fresh water ice for over 3\4 of a mile on a late December hunt. The ice cut slices on the sides down the length of the hull. I did not repair it since the gunnel had been damaged the year before when it flipped off a trailer on RT 91 at 60 mph in Ma heading to a jobsite on the CT river to set 400 yds of silt boom when the axle broke on the expansion joints in Springfield. It was loaded into a truck and finished the job.
It served as primary delivery for 3 hunters and their gear for all its service life. Plain latex paint inside and out. No glass.
This Kara was built in 99 and is sheathed with cloth on the outside and latex paint on the inside. It hunts from october till Jan and sits outside during that time. It hangs in the barn the rest of the year. It has a cover made of A\C that is painted with latex to keep the rain out. I sponge it out after a hunt.
This box is two seasons old and is covered outside with glass and inside with Pettit. Floated John for his first duck and I expect to hunt it a long time. A\C 1\4 inch. Just bought its sister from NJ built exactly the same but has Parker on the inside.
This 16' Brockway is Old. I will check the date on the hull tag this week but Earl has been gone since 96 and he built it.
1\2 inch sides and 3\4 inch bottom. No tape or glass. Just paint. Used to move boats up to 45 feet from the mooring to the seaport and back (3 miles), and as a tender for the owner.
This is my friends Lumber Yard 18 he bought in 2004. It is in the water on a mooring all year except for 2 to 3 months.
It has rot. In the spruce 2x used for the frame sides. I will replace them with Douglas Fir 2x this spring and this will keep it fishing and hunting Long Island sound till the owner wants to sell it. It is painted with Oil Paint on the bottom and was soaked with thompsons water seal inside for three years and then painted after that to look pretty for his wife when he takes her to the beach.
All boats built with Fir and doing what their owners need.
If you have marine ply near you and want to use it do so. If you dont then A\C Fir will make a boat that works if you need it to.
I dont have any building experience with birch ply in boats but have a rotten interior bulk head to repair in a 120,000+ dollar sail boat that got water on it from a leaking deck fitting. Guess what is going to replace it?
Bob