Layout boat description/regulation (Federal)?

Pete,
The short answer is Backyard Boat Builders are still required to follow the regualtions. Now let me give you the long answer and some history on the Backyard Boat Builder Policy. The laws written in 33 CFR or 46 US Code 43 do not mention Backyard Boat Builders. Anyone building a boat is considered a manufacurer. The definition of a manufacturer I posted above does not say the manufacturer of 1 boat or 100 boats. In the legal sense there is no difference. That said, in the 90's the Coast Guard created a document called the Safety Standards for Backyard Boatbuilders. This was intended to give guidance to non-professional, individual new builders, first time builders, people with little experience, or people building for themselves and not for sale. In the front of this document it says the requirements to comply with applicable regulations for the boat type still apply. Just becasue you are a Backyard Boat Builder that does not excuse you from following the regulations. It was our policy to not assign a MIC to the Backyard builder. Since it was a one-time build the person would go to the state, obtain a state HIN, and register the boat. No one from the Coast Guard would inspect it. It would be the responsibility of the person building it to make sure it was safe. Some states inspect homemade, backyard boats prior to registering them. Some don't care and only want the tax money.

Sometime in the 2000's the document Safety Standards for Backyard Boat Builders was rescinded. Its still found on the internet and is a good document for someone building a boat with little expereince. The policy is still to refer one-time builders to the states but many states are doing a better job of asking questions if it is truley a homemade, backyard boat. In reality, because no one is inspecting homemade backyard boats the perception that the rules do not apply to them is now believed to be true. Because no one is inspecting them it also has led people to abuse the policy by building many boats when that was clearly not the intent of the policy. We all know of business making "homemade boats".

There are states taking a closer lookat homemade boats. I received a call from a state official in North Carolina a few months back. A person had visited a state office to register a homeade boat 6 times. The state declined him and sent him to me to register as a manaufacturer. Texas is very strict on homemade boats. If I remember right, a person can only register a boat as homemade 3 times before Texas considers them a manufacturer. If I'm wrong about that number I'm sure someone will correct me.

My purpose for posting is to not be Big Brother or try and catch people building boats that may need to be registered with the Coast Guard. My point is to get accurate information to you, dispel some of the myths and misinformation I see posted, and to pass on safety information.
 
Alot of what I was looking for with regards to the concealment issues.

Ray wrote:

"I have looked for years for a regulatory reference to the reason why layout boats have a half coffin in them. At some point in 2004 or abouts I saw a posting that some USFW warden type "allowed" no more than half an average person's thickness front to back to be below the water surface. A statement of "its in the regulations" was added to that allowance. Back then I had some time, and I read the CFR for Migratory bird management and there was no reference in federal law about the half an average person thickness. I even looked at some Federal Regestry Pre Ambles for the Feds and there was nothing referencing boats. The only reference in federal law that governs duck hunting is the fully concealed below the water surface. There may be some State laws that address this and provide some kind of minimum or maximum below the water surface, but there is no federal law.

That half a person thickness "thing" may have to more to do with an allowance for rough water when considering various hunting conditions. If its really choppy a small person could technically be completely under the water surface, even an average of the wave height/trough distance. A guy with a big belly would not be. Maybe the makers of layout boats decided to split the difference and design a boat with the half coffin in it so that unless its a kid laying down there is no way to have anyone more than half way under the average rough water surface height.

If you follow the USCG Backyard Boat Builder design requirements, and then allow that the person laying down can never be fully concealed below the surface of the water you should be fine.

The USGS regulations that address boats are moot on this issue. "

http://cfr.regstoday.com/33cfr183.aspx

I agree with that and that has been my experience. Twentysome odd years ago I asked a Federal Warden these questions and he refused to be nailed-down on anything. Kind of like the old pornography law ..... I don't know what pornography is, I only know it when I see it. Helpful.

For arguements sake, let's say a Busick has a dropped (coffin) box extending three inches under the waterline, certainly not enough to conceal the average duckhunter. My intention is to have a dropped box that is at the waterline at the head end and perhaps six inches where your feet would lay. Tilting the box would allow for more comfort as well as making it easier to come up to the shooting position. With this angled drop box my heels would be six inches under the water but my wader boots are almost twelve inches long, ergo my toes would be almost five inches above the waterline. My shoulders and head would be completely above the waterline. I can't see a problem with that at all. Truth be told, if I remove the floorboard from my Black Brant II I can conceal more that 50% of my profile below the water due to the boats eight inches of draft.

The rest of my layout design will remain secret for now.

For those of you who don't know me I am one of the originals on the sight. I helped Eric build his first boat, the Scaup. I had built my BBII eight years earlier.

John D.

Many years here in north Alabama we get goodly numbers of divers, Cans Redheads, Blubills, and Ringers. One day this season, Eric, Bill Burress and I saw some guys run up a flock with over 500 Cans in it. When they are here they are here.
 
Alot of what I was looking for with regards to the concealment issues.

Ray wrote:

"I have looked for years for a regulatory reference to the reason why layout boats have a half coffin in them. At some point in 2004 or abouts I saw a posting that some USFW warden type "allowed" no more than half an average person's thickness front to back to be below the water surface. A statement of "its in the regulations" was added to that allowance. Back then I had some time, and I read the CFR for Migratory bird management and there was no reference in federal law about the half an average person thickness. I even looked at some Federal Regestry Pre Ambles for the Feds and there was nothing referencing boats. The only reference in federal law that governs duck hunting is the fully concealed below the water surface. There may be some State laws that address this and provide some kind of minimum or maximum below the water surface, but there is no federal law.

That half a person thickness "thing" may have to more to do with an allowance for rough water when considering various hunting conditions. If its really choppy a small person could technically be completely under the water surface, even an average of the wave height/trough distance. A guy with a big belly would not be. Maybe the makers of layout boats decided to split the difference and design a boat with the half coffin in it so that unless its a kid laying down there is no way to have anyone more than half way under the average rough water surface height.

If you follow the USCG Backyard Boat Builder design requirements, and then allow that the person laying down can never be fully concealed below the surface of the water you should be fine.

The USGS regulations that address boats are moot on this issue. "

http://cfr.regstoday.com/33cfr183.aspx

I agree with that and that has been my experience. Twentysome odd years ago I asked a Federal Warden these questions and he refused to be nailed-down on anything. Kind of like the old pornography law ..... I don't know what pornography is, I only know it when I see it. Helpful.

For arguements sake, let's say a Busick has a dropped (coffin) box extending three inches under the waterline, certainly not enough to conceal the average duckhunter. My intention is to have a dropped box that is at the waterline at the head end and perhaps six inches where your feet would lay. Tilting the box would allow for more comfort as well as making it easier to come up to the shooting position. With this angled drop box my heels would be six inches under the water but my wader boots are almost twelve inches long, ergo my toes would be almost five inches above the waterline. My shoulders and head would be completely above the waterline. I can't see a problem with that at all. Truth be told, if I remove the floorboard from my Black Brant II I can conceal more that 50% of my profile below the water due to the boats eight inches of draft.

The rest of my layout design will remain secret for now.

For those of you who don't know me I am one of the originals on the sight. I helped Eric build his first boat, the Scaup. I had built my BBII eight years earlier.

John D.

Many years here in north Alabama we get goodly numbers of divers, Cans Redheads, Blubills, and Ringers. One day this season, Eric, Bill Burress and I saw some guys run up a flock with over 500 Cans in it. When they are here they are here.


Jeff With layouts it about floating correctly and being able to manipulate the craft to have enough of it below the water yet still float properly and that is where the problem arrises. You lower it it floats higher etc etc. You start messing with the shape and you cannot get enough capacity for most guys to be within the USCG ratings.

We spent 2 years working out the kinks of our latest design which is Towable and has 13" of foot room and more depth and width at the shoulders as well. So much time and design work that we copyrighted it. It works well be requires 250lbs for it to float correctly. Anything less it rides high.

I am not sure that someone hasnt tried about everything there is with layouts and there was a guy in michigan who built a boat out of glass like you talk of but I doubt it would ever pass a USCG test due to its design.

If ya have any questions or wanna talk about things with layouts let me know. Would be glad to help ya work it out.
 
Tony,

Why solve one problem and not all? The answers are simple, the questions complex.

MHO.
 
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[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]"Vessel includes every description of watercraft, other than a seaplane on the water, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on the water.
Not to nitpick Darren but a Busik style boat is not used for transportation"

Howard, the key word is "capable" of being used for transportation. People use kayak paddles, oars, or attach small kicker motors on layouts including the Busik style so yes they are a vessel capable of being used as a means of transportation. The Coast Guard looks at layout boats as rowboats. Even if the boat is carried on another boat, dropped in the water, its still capable of being paddled which is a means of transportation. I don't make the rules. I'm just explaining a longstanding policy. If you have unique design that you feel the Coast Guard should take a look at call me at (202) 372-1077
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Darren, I just through that comment out there just to fuel the debate. It worked.
I do have two boats to get over to Soloman this spring/summer. They are both my designs but I don't know that I would call them unique, although the sneak boat is different.
 
From what I was told a hunter cannot be 50% under the surface of the water, that includes the top of the waves. I think This the reason Dave Clarke and a few others have made layouts with out the well. There is a big gray area I my opinion between how a sinkbox and a layout are separated in definition.
 
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