More Canada Restrictions Against US Hunters

[Vince Pagliaroli]

If I recall correctly each province has it's own requirements for big game. When ya check the regs for each province it shall tell ya.

Most as I recall do require a guide for Big Game. That is where the trickle down effect to other hunting began. When I hunted the different province's I always checked the Big Game laws and requirements. I study those things no matter where I hunt and fish much more than I ever studied in school... We each have our priorities in life. There are/were also non resident Canadian to that Province licenses, not just non residents of Canada licenses. When ya go somewhere to hunt and fish it's best that ya do yer studying before hand. It always helps.

my 2 cents

 

[NickR]

Nick,

Why do you dislike travelling hunters?

It’s not to cast stones at people in this group because people here are obviously more thoughtful than the average tourist-hunter.

But the simple fact is, tourists don’t have a vested interest in the community or the habitat and unfortunately that often manifests unsportsmanlike behaviors. Is it all tourist-hunters? No, certainly not. However the bad ones leave lasting impressions, literally and figuratively. I know this after 20 years of immersing myself in rural areas and managing lands open to public recreation.

There is also the guide/outfitter (catering to tourists) locking out the freelancers… the tourists with the deepest pockets will often outmuscle the average sportsperson, whether that rich guy is guided or freelancing.

What if… what if people had to hunt and fish close to home… wouldn’t that create an incentive to care for their own home turf rather than exploit the next green pasture? Or if they cared enough to move full time to that greener pasture wouldn’t it spread out economic growth for rural economies?

 

[Dani]

While I can appreciate your view point, I have a slightly more cynical view. The folk who display unsportsmanlike behavior will do so whether they are on their "home turf" or others. I have seen that too frequently to think that just being a "tourist hunter" turns people into jerks, slobs or game hogs. I would agree that those folk will and do ruin it for everyone...tourists and locals alike.

Does it seem to manifest more in tourists and out of staters? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I think it may depend greatly on where you live, the population of where you live and what you are hunting/fishing for. Certainly, out of staters are great and easy to cast stones at when locals find "their" spots seemingly overrun and then they become vocal about it. Then legislators get involved. And there goes the neighborhood.

Some of the biggest jerks and slobs I have met are locals to where I was hunting. I would have considered myself a local because I hunted one area frequently and often harder than many of the people who lived close by. I worked with biologists to help on projects in those areas. However, because I lived three hours away I was one of the "tourists". I was one of the people who was a "problem". So, what did the locals do? They ultimately screamed loudly and whined greatly and the rules changed so now, the odds of me getting to hunt an area that I used to hunt heavily and devoted a lot of time to is so small that I don't even bother making the trip anymore. If a local doesn't get picked at the check in line, they can go home and go back to bed. If someone who lives out of town doesn't get picked, they have made the trip, spent the money, devoted the time and they get to go home empty handed and without having had a chance to get on the water. The rule changes have not made hunting "better" except maybe for a few people. It has not fostered an incentive to care for their home turf more because I keep in touch with a few folk down there and they talk about how shitty the hunting is becoming, how many more jerks there seem to be, how little access there is these days. There are many factors that play into it but there were a lot of devoted people to that area that quit making the trip because they were run out of what they considered "theirs" too just because of the fact they "lived too far away".

From what I have seen, the biggest poachers tend to be locals. The trashiest people tend to be locals. The rudest tend to be locals. The most competitive tend to be locals. And the ones that I think about are not ones that travel to hunt, even more than a couple of hours away. Buuuuuuuut, I also recognize that where I live is not much of a destination place, except for deer and turkeys in FL. A LOT of hunters from the south FL area come up to hunt up here because the deer hunting is so bad for them. I don't begrudge them but I know the "locals" don't like it. However, when I start looking at the poaching, trash dumping, rudeness, lack of care of the environment....the locals still are the biggest offenders. Those attitudes I am sure would follow them around if they travelled to hunt.

I guess it depends also on the reasons why a tourist hunter goes travelling. Is it truly for greener pastures or is it because the experiences offered are experiences that they don't normally get or would like to experience just once? Often it is a bit of both but I would say that the motivations tend to skew one way or another. It is tough to move to "greener pastures" when a large part of the point for a person to travel and hunt is to experience chukar hunting in Oregon one year, prairie chickens in NE, sage grouse in MT another, ruffed grouse hunting in ME or MI another, woodcock in LA, chasing all of the subspecies of turkeys.....etc etc etc. Now, if you continually go back to one place all of the time? Maybe I could see someone wanting to move to that locale so that they didn't have to travel. So, you gotta look at the motivation behind that travelling hunter too....

I can easily see both sides of the coin. I also can empathize with both sides and I know there is no easy answer. One of the big complaints was that locals couldn't hunt because they had family obligations they had to deal with so they couldn't get to the boat ramp as early or as easily as someone who didn't. Well......does that mean that I should have to be penalized because THEY made a choice to have a family and I don't have kids? As you say, there are always excuses.

I find it sad, though not surprising, that the limiting of out of staters is the way this continent is heading in general. There are only so many resources, so many more people in general and diminishing places for those that do like to hunt and fish to be able to go. It is sadly inevitable that this is what is going to happen.

Oh...I do tend to agree with what you say about the outfitters/guides and how they can cause problems for everyone....local and tourist hunters of modest means alike.

 

[Vince Pagliaroli]

Dani,

OH MY! Go On....

Tell It Like It IS.

Thank You & AMEN


Best regards
Vince

 

[Jeff Reardon]

Yup, Dani nailed it. Most of my experience is with angling. There are waters I have stopped fishing because of the crowds, and it's easy to rant about the NH and VT and Mass anglers that are part of the crowd. But the fact is that the guy who first showed me those streams was from NH--they were not the radar for my Dad and me and I didn't know about them until he showed me around. And we could take all the flatlanders (yes, we do call anyone from away that, even if, like NH, they have bigger mountains that we do) off the river and it would still be too crowded for me. I had a fishing buddy who came to the US from Ireland, where poor kid from Dublin like him couldn't even dream about getting on good trout and salmon water. He moved to Philadelphia and started fly fishing Pennsylvania streams as an apprentice jeweler, and then moved to Maine and opened a jewelry shop here. When we first fished together, I was constantly annoyed at how close he'd be to me. We were buddies, but I was used to people giving me way more space. Then he showed me pictures from his PA trips, and some of those streams in easy day trip range from Philly and NYC and even DC area literally had 2 or 3 anglers on every pool--and I'm talking about small streams, not big rivers. The "local etiquette" was just different down there. I see the same thing here duck hunting. In Merrymeeting Bay, it's crowded, and there are a lot of ducks, and people are quite tolerant of other parties setting up within 200 yards or so. Most of the other places I hunt, I get annoyed is anyone's within 1/4 mile, and even that might get me to move early if the ducks are not flying well. Pretty hard to pick up the local norms the first time you hunt a new area, and misunderstandings are easy to provoke and hard to recover from.

 

[greg setter]

While I can appreciate your view point, I have a slightly more cynical view. The folk who display unsportsmanlike behavior will do so whether they are on their "home turf" or others.

Well now isn't that the truth. Most of the unfriendly incidents I ever had were with in-state hunters here in NJ.

 

[Vince Pagliaroli]

Yup, Dani nailed it. Most of my experience is with angling. There are waters I have stopped fishing because of the crowds, and it's easy to rant about the NH and VT and Mass anglers that are part of the crowd. But the fact is that the guy who first showed me those streams was from NH--they were not the radar for my Dad and me and I didn't know about them until he showed me around. And we could take all the flatlanders (yes, we do call anyone from away that, even if, like NH, they have bigger mountains that we do) off the river and it would still be too crowded for me. I had a fishing buddy who came to the US from Ireland, where poor kid from Dublin like him couldn't even dream about getting on good trout and salmon water. He moved to Philadelphia and started fly fishing Pennsylvania streams as an apprentice jeweler, and then moved to Maine and opened a jewelry shop here. When we first fished together, I was constantly annoyed at how close he'd be to me. We were buddies, but I was used to people giving me way more space. Then he showed me pictures from his PA trips, and some of those streams in easy day trip range from Philly and NYC and even DC area literally had 2 or 3 anglers on every pool--and I'm talking about small streams, not big rivers. The "local etiquette" was just different down there. I see the same thing here duck hunting. In Merrymeeting Bay, it's crowded, and there are a lot of ducks, and people are quite tolerant of other parties setting up within 200 yards or so. Most of the other places I hunt, I get annoyed is anyone's within 1/4 mile, and even that might get me to move early if the ducks are not flying well. Pretty hard to pick up the local norms the first time you hunt a new area, and misunderstandings are easy to provoke and hard to recover from.

Jeff,

Having lived in PA most of my life. The PA "stream etiquette" there is caused by the fact there are so many angler's, and only so many places for them to fish. One learns to go where and when the other anglers are not fishing. That takes lots of learning to accomplish. The same can be said for hunting in PA. Many of us seek solitude and space to enjoy, and that can be a problem. The outdoors not for socializing. As my one buddy told another hunter who wanted to chat. "Hey buddy if ya wanna talk go to a bar. I wanna hunt." That is also a part of PA outdoor etiquette....

When I moved to western NY I found that there are more places to fish than there are anglers to use them all. This is because there are so many different types of fishing, seasons and places to fish from salt water, the great lakes & tribs, rivers, streams, and ponds. The stream etiquette here is a far cry from PA (except the tribs) especially if one is willing to explore.

If hunting & fishing culture is very strong in a state, and the capacity to do so cannot support the amount of folks doing it. Well....then folks go elsewhere to do and enjoy what they love. Hence "The non resident hunter & fishermen". This we all should know. Trying to handle it and accept it as best we can if it's in our area. Not very easy at all.

Slobs are Slobs wherever they are, and that is the truth.

my 2 cents

 

[Carl]

My approach to trout fishing in Wayne and Lackawanna Counties PA was to put up with opening day crowds and then fish parts of the streams no one else bothered with. Never had much competition after about May 1st.

 

[Kyle Hauck]

Saskatchewan outfitter checking in here. Well at least for a few more weeks until the business sale is complete.
I don't see hardly any "illegal" guiding in Saskatchewan because they enforce it very well. They are protecting that resource both for the crown and for the individual like myself who have the correct licenses to guide. Now Alberta is different where all of us could go be guides today if we wanted because there is no limit on guiding.
I do know that the Sask Guides Association is looking at Alberta and Manitoba and looking at doing something similar. I would not be surprised to see a shortened license soon.
The thing that has always surprised me is the lack of regulation in Sask versus the states to the immediate South in regards to bag limits. 2 hens total in SD with one pintail. Sask, go ahead and shoot 8 hen pintails, no problem.
I welcome a more serious discussion about the freelance hunters in Canada. There are a lot of statements being made as opinions on this thread that I have found to be not only untrue but laughable to think of.

 

[Eric Patterson]

I welcome a more serious discussion about the freelance hunters in Canada. There are a lot of statements being made as opinions on this thread that I have found to be not only untrue but laughable to think of.

Will you provide some details about the freelance hunters and where you think the opinions are wrong?

 

[Kyle Hauck]

Will you provide some details about the freelance hunters and where you think the opinions are wrong?

Eric, I mostly am here to state that some of the things mentioned here are outright lies from my experience. In the area where I guided the most problem with waterfowl hunters came from freelance guys (a lot of times from MN or MI for whatever reason.) My theory is they had very little to lose. Hundreds of thousands of acres were at their disposal in a time where permission was not needed at all. I on the other hand my the rules of outfitting had to have written permission. That being said there were 10+ good respectful freelancers for every 1 bad one and I happily shared a field with freelancers that also had permission to hunt a feed on more than one occasion.

Also someone here mentioned outfitters locking up land. I never saw that happening and in Saskatchewan it's downright illegal. Now I saw it happened once or twice and immediately reported it. I even had a few landowners ask me to pay them and I explained it was against the laws for me to do so.

I also saw someone mentioned that people that show up to shoot are only shooters and not hunters. I refute that statement. Just because a person doesn't care their own decoys, and find their own birds doesn't mean they are not hunters. Some people use their skills in their day job in order to pay outfitters for their skills to put them in the right area for birds. I have had clients who I would consider more of a sportsman than others who "do it all themselves."

There might be some other opinions in there I wanted to respond to, but I'll have to go back and read again tomorrow

 

[Vince Pagliaroli]

Kyle,

Thank you for your input, and info on this subject. Much appreciated.

I agree with you on many points that you have stated. I do not agree with you on the term of Shooters. In many countries and places when targets (skeet, trap, sporting clays), birds & animals are placed before clients by other folks the terms Guns, Shooters, and Sports are applied. This is not a question of sportsmanship, just fact. Sportsmanship is another subject that I'm sure you are well versed in.

Often when I was guided on waterfowl hunts on the east coast of the USA I did not hunt. The guides did the hunting. We had respect for each other and the roles we each had. As a client & Sportsman I was a gun, Sport, or a shooter. These are not disparaging terms in that vein. In all the years I've hunted in Canada I was not guided. That is by my choice. There was no ill will against legal guides, and their necessary place in the outdoors community. Folks need to make a living and use the skills that the Lord provided as best they can.

Somewhere along the line clients were called hunters instead of guns or shooters. It does take a twist when unplugged shotguns, electronic callers, Spring seasons, etc. and a attempt to kill as many White Geese as possible takes place. For some that is not hunting, and that tarnishes us all. The very last thing we need in this day and age.

When I checked the SASK regs I read that now Canada Goose hunting is all day not just prior to noon. Duck limits are 8, and no set limit on certain ducks (Pintails) as there once was. The Sandhill Crane limit is 5, not 3 as it was prior. I could be very wrong but this tells me there are less hunters and not more birds to have such changes in the regs. How many waterfowlers are there in SASK, resident, non Canada resident, and Canadian non resident from another Province?

We may agree to disagree but we sure as hell better find common ground to safe guard the resources and the future of waterfowling for all involved. It makes my old heart happy to read that I can still hunt waterfowl in SASK the way I like. At least for awhile longer...


Best regards
Vince