More salt for the wound

Eric Patterson

Eric Patterson

Moderator
Staff member
I wanted to weigh in on the flapper post a few days ago but was unable to at that time. I did recieve PMs concerning it and told those folks the thread would run it course which it did, like everythime before.

However, I do have a little regret for not weighing in on the subject. As Tod referenced at one time there was much vocal opposition to motos on this site at one time. Those folks, myself included, have taken to keeping our opinions to ourselves over time as the debate grew old, the frequency of folks using them increased, and the stigma around using them evaporated. They've become common place and the opposition beat down. Tod was well within his right to speak out against them, just as was done in the past by many others here. The difference this time was he was the lone voice of the battle cry. You may not like what he said or how he said it but I give him credit for showing sack in the face of overwhelming opposition. That attitude is perhaps the most "traditional" with regards to this site. Knock down drag out arguments have long been on this site. Not that I like them and I certainly don't relish them, especially if they call me or Steve into referee, but sometimes you have to get mad to challenge or change your own way of thinking.

As for spinners, I am with Tod in his opposition. I think comparing them to neoprene or gore-tex is ludicrous and making the argument that if you use anything developed in the past x years you are in the same boat as moto users. I am not. I wear goretex and neoprene becuase they are more comfortable, not because they help me kill more ducks. I don't use motos because I have witnessed substantial increases in kills with them. I don't like the line of thought that "if they increase the harvest then the seasons will be adjusted accordingly." I want the longest seasons possible and I won't concede a day for someone who wants to flip a switch in hopes of ending the day early or upping their body counts so they can brag to their buddies and post tailgate shots on the net. Puke on that. And I can't stand the old "I only use them because if I don't I get my ass spanked in the season tallies by the punks across the way." To those I suggest golf or bowling where you can keep score and be lazy. Steve Sutton once called them a "a winged crutch." One of the most apt descriptions I have ever heard or read.

So to those who think Tod was out of line with his vocal dislike to the point of being an aberration with his contempt for motos, count me in with him. I may not choose the words he did but rest assured I feel the same.

Eric
 
With all my traveling I missed the post, but completely agree with Eric and apparently Tod.

I have never owned one, never hunted over one and never will, I don't care who I am hunting with.
 
I caught Tod's first reply and just walked away like Bill Murray's Carl in Caddyshack when lightening hits the golfer. "I don't think the heavy stuff is gonna come down for a while now".

I wish they'd be completely outlawed across the board. I spent years hating them vociferously but eventually gave up. And now I've pretty much given in as there is one charging in the backroom. I use it to field hunt ducks and they work great for centering birds when you are restricted to a relatively tight shooting cone. The vast majority of those shots could probably occur just fine without it but I have one now so I use it...it was given to me by an older neighbor guy. I used it on water recently and contrary to their effectiveness in field situations there is no doubt in my mind that mature birds shy from them in water situations. They've been doing this for years and now flight birds and in particular locals seem to shy from the general area where spinners are spinning which impacts hunters around the guy with the "spinner farm".

It's a tired debate and I doubt that they'll ever be outlawed but I suspect that eventually they'll slowly disappear as guys start to realize that they usually suck.
 
I stayed out of the original post because I never really saw a productive place for me to put any good input. This seems a better place. I have only hunted over a spinner once, mostly out of curiosity. The spinner did make black ducks give us a longer look and bring some mallards in on what otherwise was a very poor day. I do think they will bring ducks into hunters better than any other single item someone can buy. I do not think I will be hunting over one again. That is my choice. I would like to see them banned but I don't think the wind powered ones will ever go away. Really no difference than a jerk cord or flagging in theory. I really think the battery powered ones should be done away with. That is where I draw the line for myself.

I have no issue with someone using them in a legal context. I think they should be educated on why I and others do not like their use but the argument that they are nasty does little to make a productive argument and help to educate others. Many people only know what the "whack 'em stack 'em" tv shows and magazines tell them. I'd rather educate other hunters in the fine tradition and heritage of waterfowling than alienate them as coming off as elitist snobs.

For the record, I have done just about any despicable (but legal) waterfowling practice you can think of from water swatting and hen shooting to hunting over a spinner. We are all on a journey toward what we feel is the best way to hunt. You have to decide what is best for you.

Well, I feel a little better.

Gene
 
I didn't chime in on that other thread as I am really conflicted on the subject. First of all I'm a traditional kind of guy, and am used to handicapping myself for the sake, or fun, of doing things the hard way. I prefer hunting deer and elk with a long bow versus a compound during bow season, I only fly fish even when my wife is killing me with her spinning rod, I tend to rifle hunt with my Dad's old model 99 Savage and open sights, I like wool and leather over goretex and polyfibers. That said I am somewhat situational in what I use and how I use it. If I'm backpacking I'm comfortable with nylon, goretex and down. I have neoprene waders, latest goretex camo sometimes, or Filson waxed cotton and wool sweater, we hunt over my buddy's hand carved cork decoys because they work better than plastic, our boat is a Devlin design plywood , epoxy and fiberglass, I don't know where that fits on the spectrum of traditional. We, my main hunting buddy and I tend to be a combination of traditional and pragmatic.

Battery operated spinner decoys are legal and ubiquitous around here, to the point that ducks become wise to them pretty quickly and flair off a spread that has one operating. I had never even considered using one until I went hunting with another dogtraining fried who had one in his spread. We had a good hunt that day, but we usually have a good hunt in that spot as duck just like to go there. Honestly I didn't consider it controversial, just another tool like the cord we have out to our feeder decoy. Reading the other thread was very good in opening up the debate as one of ethical hunting philosophy. Of course our fish and game laws are set up as a combination of game management and hunting ethics with most proposed rules being fully debated in various forums before they are put into law, so those rules and regulations are certainly a good place to start as a guideline of what is ethical and what isn't. I guess any line or further restriction we draw beyond that is a personal choice for each of us. I have been through the "better than thou" debates between some traditional archers and the compound bow guys, and it can get ugly and counterproductive to the whole bow hunting community.

If guys with spinner decoys were over harvesting ducks and harming the overall duck population I would think the F&G managers would be pushing to outlaw them, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I imagine there are cases where hunters set up within sight of each other, one has a spinner the other doesn't, and the spinner is the difference on ducks coming in could make the other hunter mad. But that could be the case without a spinner. Just last weekend mu buddy and I were set up with our normal spread in a good spot, but someone was right around the corner with either a better spread, or the ducks just wanted to go in there that day. Every flight of ducks that approached veered right into their spread. Neither my buddy or I even flicked our safety off until those guys limited out and left. They didn't have a spinner.

I guess I don't see the spinner as a magic decoy, and can see the argument for it being just another step in the evolution of duck hunting. I once made a spread of mud decoys on an island on the Yukon River to see if it worked like the early native Americans with their reed and mud decoys. I walked out of the tent after dawn the next morning and scared about 300 ducks up out of my mud decoys. I guess I don't see a convenient ethical line to draw on this evolution of duck hunting techniques, certainly not one I would crucify a fellow duck hunter over.

John

ps, I still haven't decided whether to try one of the spinners myself, but it certainly isn't fear of condemnation from others that has prevented me for using one so far.
 
I quit reading the other thread because it really doesn't do any good anymore, besides I'm not so sure I agree that the other thread was about motos.
The one being used was clearly wind powered and for me that is OK. My whole objection has always been based on a simple belief, if the species is not causing damage I don't think that motors or electronics should be involved in the actual taking or luring of them. Managing an out of control population is different then taking a surplus from it. I'm even on the fence if electronic rangefinders are OK for big game hunting. If you can't judge the distance don't shoot that far. I'm still thinking on that one.

I've never had a problem with using any wind or human powered device to fool ducks. No different then a flag, kite, decoys that move easily in the wind or a jerk string. I have hunted with someone using a wind powered spinner and unless things are just right they don't do much. I'm not even sure they do much when things are all just right. I'd rather flag.

Tim
 
I never weighed in as well as my opnion is well known on this site. I asked a question years ago on this and no one was able to respond and I'll ask again. Show me the statistics on how motos have caused the drastic decrease in duck numbers across the country that have been predicted by many. I don't see it. Duck numbers are up since the introduction of moto's (if I recall correctly and I could easily be proven wrong on this). I don't want to see some study where more of "x" ducks were killed over a spot where moto's were used verses a similar spot where they weren't. Talk to me about total duck counts over the past 5 years (or however long they have been around). If motos are as bad as everyone thinks, and they are as popluar as they are, duck populations had to decrease drastically. Let me see the stats.

My favorite comment on the moto's came from a very uniformed person on this site who no longer posts here. He went on and on about how hard and long he scouted the area to find the ducks, how hard it was to get to this spot he found, how early he had to get up and get to the hunting spot only to find another duck hunter already there. This hunter was using a moto so the guy who worked so hard automatically called him a lazy ass something or another. Wait a minute, didn't the non moto user just get done telling us what a great and hard working hunter he was to have found this spot? Someone obvioulsy did the exact same amount of work he did and he was a lazy ass slob hunter just cause he used a spinner. Explain that one to me.

I found this statement to be so typcial of the anti moto crowd - just cause someone uses a moto they are automatically labelled something that some hunters deserve and some don't. I could say the same about the more traditionalist hunter who loves hunting over hand carved decoys and in a hand built boat. Just because they do these things doesn't automatically put them into a category of "above the line" hunters. I have come across as many jerks out in the field hunting over carved birds and in homebuilt boats who were every bit the ass as some other hunters who were using spinners. Using a spinner does not automatically equate to ass. There are many out there from all walks of life.

Sorry Eric but I have to disagree with your comment on gore tex, thinsulate and all the other "new" products brought into the world of duck hunting. Like many others on this site, I have been hunting for 30 + years and I remember hunting in a Red Ball (Red Dog, I can't recall the exact name) canvas hunting coat that I wore over cotton long johns. I wore jeans down below and over them rubber waders. Cotton and wool socks were on my feet and leather choppers on my hands. Up here it gets cold and I remember worrying more about staying warm instead of hunting ducks. If it was too cold, or raining, or horrible weather, I didn't hunt (as well as many others) cause I was miserable. This is not the case today. I can hunt the entire season (with my 13 year old son who doesn't worry about getting cold etc....) and not worry about getting cold and wet and feeling miserable. The more I can hunt, and the longer I can stay out to hunt, the more birds I can and do kill. My best hunting these days occurs when it is well below zero and lakes and ponds are frozen. I kill more birds during this short time period then the entire season leading up to it. Prior to all the great gear I have now I would never hunt at this time of the year. Hunting this late is not because I have become tougher as I got older - in fact it is the exact opposite as I have become more of a wuss as I have aged. So if the debate on the spinners is that they kill more birds, the same could be said for all the new duck hunting gear we have that allows us to hunt longer and therefore kill more birds. Same end result, just a different way of getting there.

Anyway, my opinion on the motos has not changed but my usage of them has. They don't work like they used to. Some spots they work well, others they don't work at all. Wood Ducks hate the things and will not even come near a spread with a spinner in it. Older ducks also tend to shy away. A spinner is just another tool of many available to us hunters. Use of a spiner is an individual choice. Do I like seeing 10 spinners when I am out hunting - not really. If I see this many and it bothers me so much, it is time for me to find another spot.

I do loves Steve's description of them, winged crutch was it - very well put.

Glad there are still sites like this where people can engage freely in consenting opinions. Thanks for letting the debates occur Eric. We all can learn so much from the discussions had on the DBHF.

Mark W
 
Last edited:
I didn't chime in either but I haven't been chiming in much the past few months. I have a moto (somewhere in the basement but since packing I can't find it). Anyway I bought one out of curiosty. Here's what I found over the years. Hunting the Mississippi Flyway in my area of the country leaves a lot to be desired but non the less we keep trying. By the time the ducks leave Canada and venture across North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa and flash past me to get to the Illinois River where Pat Gregory's decoys are the ducks are so shy of wingers they don't help at all. As I see it, if your where the ducks want to be you don't need a winger and if your where the ducks don't want to be there's nothing to see a winger.

Just my .02 centovos,

Ed L.
 
My whole problem was that a fella posted to share a great hunt he had and he got slammed.
There was no reasonable justification for slamming him, plain & simple.
I dont use electonic spinners and dont ever intend too, but that is no reason to slam someone who was simply trying to share his experience with us.
 
I am of the same opinion as Carl. When Todd gets pissy he reminds me of my ex-wife and his argument style gets really annoying really fast. It is not whether or not he is right or wrong, but it is how he communicates (or doesn't) that really grates me.

If I remember the biologist paper out of California (or was it Minnesota?) some years ago they found that spinners take out a significant percentage of young (first year) birds. The concern was that if too many young birds didn’t make it through to nest their first year then over time the population will be made up of older birds with a multi year generation gap. If there are fewer young birds reaching nesting age then there will soon be fewer birds over all as the population ages.

Considering this it makes sense to restrict the use of spinners in areas where birds are concentrated due to reduced habitat and the corresponding higher hunting pressure. In areas where there is lots of habitat and not high hunting pressure (where this is I don’t know other than the remote swamps of Alaska and Canada) then there may not be a biological reason to restrict their use.

The use of a spinner a few times has not increased my overall take above “normal”. I have found that when set up in a pocket of water that can not be seen from a distance then a spinner results in more “looks” from birds, but does not result in an increase in taken birds. If I liked shooting 45 yard passing shots then the number might be an increase. In open water spots where the decoys can be seen from several hundred yards with the spinner and without spinner numbers of “looks” from passing birds are the same. Still the same numbers of taken birds. For me I have found no increase in my harvest numbers. This is probably due to the environment I hunt in - huge swamps with limited hunting pressure, infrequent bird movement and limited food sources.

In my area I have found that movement on the water is more important. The jerk string was OK, but by myself took too much messing around and I changed over to the home made duck butt feeder. That is the one thing that has added to an increase in harvest and looks from birds. However, it is still a motorized decoy, but is much more realistic since it creates water movement which is more visible from a distance than the spinner. A few years ago I sat on a cut bank road over looking a small lake. With my naked eye I could see decoys sitting still on the pond surface, and real ducks 400 yards from the decoys making V shapes in the surface. I could not see the spinner until I looked with my 8X binos. It was in the shadow of the trees behind where the guys were and was catching no light from where I was looking at it. I was about ¾ of a mile from where the guys were set up. Those few minutes watching that pond convinced me that there are better methods of getting the attention of passing birds.

Of course where I hunt I also run into the other ethical question of just taking drakes. The first 40 to 50 days of the season the birds are all brown. The first three weeks the only time you will know a drake from a hen is when they are close enough to see their bill color. The next three weeks the drakes start to change and the most telling part is their chest and bellies. Still hard to make out at times depending on the light. All this means is that we frequently kill hens which of course removes thousands of future ducks from the population. Which is worse the spinner which might allow for a few additional birds before it freezes over (now actually only half way through the season), or the removal of thousands of potential future ducks by killing a few hens before it freezes?

In the end I think I will keep the spinner around, but the use of decoys that create water motion will increase the total harvest.

On a side note - the whole increased harvest issue. The Feds set the daily limit to X birds per day and 3xX total possession. Let’s say 6 is the daily limit for a given area making the possession limit is three times that at 18. The way that the Feds are enforcing the possession limit is that until they are actually consumed they are still in possession. So you have a good three day weekend and take your 18 birds. You pluck them and vacuum bag them and freeze all but two of them which are eaten on Tuesday. Then on Wednesday your buddy invites you out to hunt a private pond and you take another limit which you then pluck and vacuum bag and freeze. You now have 4 birds over the federal possession limit allowed.

It can be deduced from the Fed way of thinking that they think no one is going to be taking more than 18 birds every couple of weeks since they have to consume them in order to hunt again. So even with an increase in harvest from the use of spinners the hunter is still limited by the possession limit and the number of birds taken will still be within the federal model used to establish the seasonal limits.

Thinking of it this way makes me wonder how the Duck Commander crew can take 1200 birds in a season legally. On the last day of the season they can only have a two day possession limit in their freezer. Those four guys actually ate about 300 birds each during the season? Really?

The other thread can be boiled down to an argument over ethics (guided by principles) or morals (following the rules). When you start defining your participation in an activity based on what is and is not ethical you have turned it into entertainment. Hunting is about gathering food. The rules are there to protect the resource, and in the modern era to provide a measure of safety to the hunter. Even though I have fun while hunting, I have never hunted for entertainment. I have hunted with guys that want to high five after making a shot and it seriously confused me. When did duck hunting become entertainment like pro sports? I hunt for food so I follow the rules and don’t let ethics interfere with the food gathering. If someone wants to adhere to strict ethical principles that follow something that speaks to their soul, I think that is a really cool thing, but I am not going to whine if someone else wants to gather food in a moral way allowed by the rules set up to manage the resource.
 
My sentiment is similar to that of Carl. I do not own nor plan to ever own a spinner. I even find those of distant hunters to be incredibly irritating. However, my opinion of spinners had no relevance to simple hunt photos.

My issue with Tod's reply was regarding his timing and delivery, not his opinion. The very first response to a simple thread came off sounding like, "Egad, Binky, you cretin! They'll ban us from the country club premises if you don't straighten your ascot!" Tod is very welcome to his opinion and, in many ways, I share it. However, it may have been better received in a thread of his own entitled something like "Confessions of an Anti-Spinnite." Fifteen yards for unnecessary roughness.

One of the very finest qualities of this forum, and principally why I return, is the absence of a "we don't serve yer kind around these parts" attitude.
 
Last edited:
then over time the population will be made up of older birds with a multi year generation gap.

-----------------------------

Will we have more "cougers" breeding then? (sorry, couldn't resist)
Click to expand...
 


Ray,

You gave me some things to think about in your writing regarding possession limits. The only information I could find on how a hunter terminates possession of a bird from their possession is: "
§ 20.39 Termination of possession.​
Subject to all other requirements of this part, the possession of birds taken by any hunter shall be​
deemed to have ceased when such birds have been delivered by him to another person as a gift; or​
have been delivered by him to a post office, a common carrier, or a migratory bird preservation​
facility and consigned for transport by the Postal Service or a common carrier to some person​
other than the hunter."

Strangely no where I looked did it mention consuming of a bird as removing it from possession. The only portion of the FWS regulations that mentions a part of a bird in transportation requirements (one feathered wing) and this: "
§ 20.31 Prohibited if taken in violation of Subpart C.​
No person shall at any time, by any means, or in any manner, possess or have in custody any​
migratory game bird or part thereof, taken in violation of any provision of subpart C of this part.:

Part C of the regulations deal with legal methods of taking migratory birds: non-toxic shot, no bait...

I believe one can infer that once a bird is home and processed (butchered) into food it has been removed from possession. I would be interested in others thoughts on this subject. I shoot a number of upland birds over the course of an average season and always save my legs for appetizers for summer camping trips. If having a portion of a bird (the legs) remaining in possession counts as still having the bird in possession during a normal year I am over the limit until August.

It is easy to see how the Duck Commander and crew could shoot the number of birds you reported if they are terminating possession by giving them to family and friends. As soon as I am done typing this I am going to go beat myself senseless with a wet noodle for writing the above sentence.

I also respectfully disagree with your opinion that hunting is not entertainment or sport. I think it is the original sport and that what we call sports now has been mislabeled and should be simply be referred to athletics. If we were simply hunting to gather food we would not put so much time and effort into the endeavor. We would not build boats, give to conservation organizations, travel to distance locals to bag new species...instead we would stay home and grow rhubarb and zucchini.

I also have no trouble with people using spinners as long as it is legal. Everyone has to make them type of choices for themselves. I have never used one nor can imagine I ever will since I find them to be ugly. I also cannot stand semi-autos for the same reason(they are ugly and personally distasteful) and tend to mock and feel albeit artificially superior to those who do.

My best,

Don
 
Just for the record, I actually know how to blow a duck call and thoroughly enjoy calling at and watching birds circle and work a decoy spread, and I like shooting my birds in the air! If I really wanted a 'limit' I could've stayed and easily gotten one. I chose to go home early so I could work on my basement. All I did was try to share my morning and I got shit on. I put the flapper (which was wind-powered) out because the wind was howling and it was literally the 3rd time I've used it since I bought it 5 years ago. I definitely don't need or rely on it and I can get plenty of birds to work without it!
 
"I want the longest seasons possible and I won't concede a day for someone who wants to flip a switch in hopes of ending the day early or upping their body counts so they can brag to their buddies and post tailgate shots on the net. Puke on that."

One; there's no 'switch' on my flapper. Two; I've never bragged to anyone about a bag. Three; sorry, the tailgate is where I clean my birds every time and that's just where I took my picture. My birds are all in the freezer and will make fine jerky in the smoker!
 
I believe one can infer that once a bird is home and processed (butchered) into food it has been removed from possession. I would be interested in others thoughts on this subject. I shoot a number of upland birds over the course of an average season and always save my legs for appetizers for summer camping trips. If having a portion of a bird (the legs) remaining in possession counts as still having the bird in possession during a normal year I am over the limit until August.
Click to expand...
I'm quite certain your first sentence is incorrect. If you have migratory birds, or parts there of, in your freezer they count toward possession. It is possible that state laws may be different pertaining to possession of non-migratory birds or fish. NR
 
Derek,
I could give a ratt's a$$ about a flapper or Black sh*% cork either.

I took your post for what I believe it was..... A nice couple of shots of a day out hunting for the guys who cant go for whatever reason.


If it gets to be where you have to where nickers and breeks here to fit in cause some self appointed cop is gone check you, then it is gona be a pretty boring place. It has had its moments of excitment that have passed in time and most have gotten along after, but not all. As in life thats how it goes.

I find the different experience of hunters in other places is what makes it interesting.

I agree we may as a group of hunters have much work to do regarding conservation of the ducks we shoot and might even be called a dreaded liberal environmentalist when it comes to my opinion on what the managers should be doing.

But I have a dislike of a posting attitude that rings in my ear of "You are Wrong and stupid for doing something the way you do", if the poster didnt ask your opinion.
Dont cry Censorship either. When it counts, among friends, you just dont talk to someone like a dog.

We are not going to agree on just about anything from time to time but we should be able to offer up a decent amount of civility to each others backgrounds and choices.
 
Derek, you had a good day hunting! good for you. I enjoyed your post. As for the "wash woman, don't sweat it." If you get to Florida look me up for a hunt, the spinners work great here......John
 
"I want the longest seasons possible and I won't concede a day for someone who wants to flip a switch in hopes of ending the day early or upping their body counts so they can brag to their buddies and post tailgate shots on the net. Puke on that."

One; there's no 'switch' on my flapper. Two; I've never bragged to anyone about a bag. Three; sorry, the tailgate is where I clean my birds every time and that's just where I took my picture. My birds are all in the freezer and will make fine jerky in the smoker!
Click to expand...


Derek

I went back and looked at your original post and the pictures. The pic of your lab's face with the camo nearby is really good. The comments and debate that followed distracted me from your original post. My opinions on motos are as I put it. Right or wrong it's how I feel towards them and a lot of other things I see in the field. When I started this post I admittedly purposely used harsh negative stereotyping of moto users. The validity of my characterizations is absolutely debatable. I threw it out there as a generality, not specifically aimed at you. But I see you took my comments as such, understandably. For that I am sorry. Felt bad about it last night and when I got up this morning wanted to let you know that I wasn't specifically targeting you and your post and pictures. I don't like motos but it was not my intent to single you out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top