my first wooden boat!!!!!!

Thank you Carl, and Steve, no I'm a bit afraid to shoot it to be honest. I dont want to mess it up. I had thoughts of using it to go after cans with this boat if all works out like I hope. I need to get the gun looked at first though. It would devistate me if I were to break it.
 
I own three of them and shoot them all....

ASSUMING that the bore is not overly pitted and that the mechanism works put a 7/8 ox. number 8 lead load in and a let it go downrange.....thats pretty unscientific but its the way I've done all trhee of mine after buying them.....

If you're going to shoot it on ducks then you'll want to shoot either bismuth, Tungsten, or the Classic Double stuff from Hevi-shot..(my favorite these days is the Fiocchi TUNDRA tungten...denser than bismuth and supposedly really close to lead in mallaebility)......go with the lighter loads and small shot, (I love 6's in the Tundra loads)....your gun is likely a full choke and you'll be very pleased I'm betting with the way the gun, and the load kills...and especially so on the close shots you'll experience sculling.....

Steve
 
thanks Steve, I appreciate the help today. I plan on calling my uncle up to talk to him and also keep looking up info on everything. And I think you and me need to share a two man scull boat sometime, I'd like to pick your brain some more. Thanks again for the help
John
 
andit has been a long time since I've been there to hunt.....

Check for the plug in the that gun if you decide to shoot it....if it hasn't been shot in awhile you might find that its "sans plug".....

Lots of States didn't, and some still don't, require plugs for stuff like Rabbits and Quail and Deer and that gun was likely used for a little of everything.....wouldn't surprise me if you didn't find one when you check....

Is the Uncle that "market hunted" still alive? No judgement here but he'd have to be really old to have done it "legally".....93 years since it was outlawed almost ensures that anyone that Market Hunted in their lifetime did it after it was illegal......ask him about "live decoys".....my guess is he had those and also has some interesting stories about them.....

Steve
 
Lou uses a brass toilet spud for the oar port and you can them at a plumbing supply store. It has about a 2" I.D.. You will have to remove the cast lugs on the inside and polish it smooth. An expandable plug used for a drain line will be needed when you are not using the oar to keep water out. The location of the port will be the most important part of the installation.

.
 
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Thanks Dennis, that helps a ton for sure. Steve, It was my great, great uncle that was the supposed market hunter. This would have put it around 1900 area of time. By no means was it my uncle, he retired from John Deere. He might tell you he's a market hunter after a few budweisers but it was further back the line than him. All the timelines add up pretty close with that boat and shotgun and word of mouth from my family. It puts everything around 1900 - 1910 area.
 
MArket Gunners....they made a living in a tough environment......

After 1913 I have mixed feelings about them...the ones that continued to do it because it was "their life" and who did it to feed their fmailies in "tough times" I can find little fault with....the ones that were made into local heroe's because they were "sticking it to the man"....that did it, at least in part, to "flaunt the law", the one's that are looked at as sort of "Jesse James against the Railroad"....those guys I have issues with....

Hopefully you'll be able to track down some additional history on that part of the family history.....

Steve
 
Steve,

I have a Model 97 in 16 gauge from the 1920. My Mom's Uncle gave it to me. It was used in the Utah Lake area in the 20's and 30's to hunt waterfowl and other critters defines by the need of the moment. My Mom's family is from the Provo-Orem Utah area.

I have used the 97 to hunt about every legal bird species in Utah. With the full choke and the standard 1 or 1 1/8 ounce load of 6's it is/was a deadly duck and pheasant gun. With the advent of steel I have not used it for waterfowl since. Maybe I should find some appropriate loads for it as I like that shotgun.


Matt
 
Steve and Matt, I have a 97 that I haven't looked into much, but it has an extended magazine. I was under the impression it was a trench gun of sorts. My father in law had it parkerized (shame on him) at some point. I think it was his father's gun. I heard they were dangerous to shoot for some reason and hadn't done anything with it. Can you remove parkerizing?
 
I think some of the 97's were used my Uncle Sam as a military shotgun..so figure out if yours was...yes it can be re-blued if you wish.

The 97 is viewed by some as dangerous....the hammer thingy....treat it like any other gun "DANGEROUS" and respect it and you are ok..

Matt
 
configuration starting in 1917 and were used in WWI where they were much hated by the Germans....no surprise since an American soldier armed with one could run 6 rounds through it sending 12 .32 caliber projectiles down a crowded trench and then mop up with the 18" 1917 "sword bayonet" that the gun was equipped with...it was so hated by the Germans that they actually petitioned the Hague and Geneva Conventions to "outlaw" it as an "inhumane" weapon....(this from the people that gave us mustard gas)....

If your gun has the 30" barrel then its not the "trench" model....those guns will have a 20" barrel, a barrel "heat shroud", (6 rows of ventilation holes if its was mfg'ed for WWI and 4 if it was made for WWII), sling swivels and a bayonet lug. The gun found great favor with the police after its success in WWI and was marketed in a RIOT configuration up until mfg. ceased in the late 50's....that gun will have the 20" barrel but will not have the bayonet lug or the heat shroud.....

12ga. guns in "factory" condition will have 30" barrel with full chokes and can be either the "non-take down" or "take down" models....16 ga. guns will have a 28" barrel. If your gun has a full barrel length magazine extender then it might have been used in some "high volume" shooting situation....the early market hunters added these in alot of cases.....date of mfg. would tell you whether this was in a "legal" or "non-legal" application....

Some small changes to the gun over its million gun run....forearm design changes from the short, "corn cob" design to a longer "flat sided" design in the later years and the blueing color changed.....

Dangerous to shoot?....the gun has an exposed hammer and is not more inherently dangerous to use than any other "exposed hammer" gun.....carry it "cocked" and "yep-its dangerous as hell" just as a modern weapon carried with the safety "off" is dangerous.....carry a "sound" gun with the hammer on "half cock" and its as safe as any modern gun with a safety. Carrying a gun on "half cock" does require that the operator bring the gun to "full cock" to fire but this takes only a little practice and as long as safe gun handling rules are followed the gun is no more dangerous than any other gun.....

This "assumes" that the sear that holds the hammer at "half" and "full" cock positions is not worn which can allow the hammer to "slip".....this can be checked by bringing the hammer to "half cock" and then slipping your thumb under the tang of the hammer and trying to force the hammer to slip.....the gun should, of course, be unloaded, and the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.....if the hammer cannot be disconnected from the "half cock" then the same procedure should be repeated at "full cock".....if that test is successful then the gun is safe to shoot as far as the hammer assembly is concerned....

Can't help you on the parkerized finish other than to say "I'd think it could be removed"....frankly I wouldn't mess with it since the value of the gun is already reduced by the application and removal and re-blueing won't result in an increase in that value.....shoot it "as is" and enjoy it as the piece of history that it is....

One last "interesting" note on the '97.....the trigger mechanism has no trigger disconnect which allows the gun to be fired by holding the trigger down and pumping the action...the gun fires with the completion of each foreward stroke.....this is called "slam firing" and was much appreciated by the soildiers that used the gun in close combat in WWI, WWII and Korea......(Model 12's also have this "feature").....

Steve



Steve
 
Okay I want a '97 now. How much do field models go for in "shooter" condition? My grandpa has a story about the roof on his first car and the exposed hammer on a '97.

I don't know what other pumps were "slam hammer" guns, but some Ithaca model '37s were also. You can sling a lot of lead in a hurry.

T
 
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I know that the Marlin 1898 also lacked the "trigger disconnect".....other than those I don't know....

I do know that there have been some "reproductions" of the 1897 by the Chineses and imported by Canadian companies that had the no trigger disconnects and they were not allowed to be imported into the US.....techinally a gun without a trigger disconnect is an "automatic" since that defintion includes the verbage "fires until all rounds expended as long as the trigger is depressed"......pump shotgun get by on the slim margin that they require the slide to be operated to chamber the next round.....no "automatic" shotguns were made without "trigger disconnects" and all pumps made after the banning of automatic weapons by unlicensed owners have them.....

It's been awhile since I bought my last one......

Of the three that I have I paid anywhere from $500.00 to $800.00 with the more expensive one being a riot model that has a William's peep site and blade front sight on it and is stamped, "property of FBI" under the slide and Seattle Police Department on the Stock.....I bought that one just cause I thought it was neat and I like to imagine that some G-Man took down a miscreant rum runner with it......(turns out that the peep sight is worth close to half what I paid for the gun--WHO KNEW).....

The one that I shoot the most was made in the late 30's, is a take down model, has the enlongated corn cob forearm and about 80% original bluing.....I paid $right at $600.00 for that gun.....

Be aware that this is the gun that the Cowboy Action Shooters and the early Military re-enactors favor for their hobby and that good ones have gotten tougher to find and the prices have increased since I bought mine.....

Steve
 
I'll have to let my brother know about the 'slam firing' feature. He picked up a 12 gauge at an auction a good ten or more years ago. From what I remember, the metal surfaces were similar to how John's looks in the picture, but the 'corncob' forearm was cracked and stock I think had issues too. I doubt he has fired it since he bought it. My fear in using such a gun fowling is protecting the metal in absence of bluing (I know Steve...WD40 cures all)

Were these made in 20 gauge too? Been thinking I wanted to watch for a 20 gauge SxS shooter grade, but really I've been shooting a pump all but the first year I hunted.

Chuck
 
Hi- No only made in 12- and 16-

I have a few 1897s as well- my favortite is a black diamond with english hand- two barrel set- 1909 vintage-

i have a 16 as well- 30" tube- very nice pheasant gun- use to shoot ducks with it in the 1950s-

John
 
Back in town now. Based on your description, I think I have a riot gun. Short barrel and a magazine for lotso bullets! Might make an interesting rabbit gun. Bugs would think Machine Gun Kelly is after him. Thanks for the info.
 
i know this has nothing to do with the topic, but you need to have the photo in the thread, so:

Has anybody else noticed how the photo of the dog in the picture under Steve Sutton's name looks an awful lot like the dog from the old RCA Victor advertisements?
 
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