NDR Dog eats too fast

Another great contribution to the site Ted. This is such a great website, and I am not sure why you seem hell bent on stirring the pot every chance you get. That is usually the beginning of the end on great websites.

If you add water to a dogs food they will ingest all of it no matter how large of amount you put in the bowl. Then out of habit (you ever notice dogs are creatures of habit?), they will go ahead and drink more water as they always do after eating.

Ever see a dog die of bloat? Not a pretty sight and can occur as fast as 20 to 30 minutes after the stomach twists. But, what do I know I have only been training dogs full time for over 12 years Ted.

Ted, quite frankly I would be a little concerned if I were you. That little neurotransmission that occurs with most people to stop them posting something stupid on the net, seems to not work very well with you. You may want to seek professional psychiatric help.

Have a great day!
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Thanks Brian for the analysis, psychiatric and otherwise.

I'm well aware of what "bloat" is. I don't see the link to any Purdue information to back up your statements on the role of water along with food. I'm not saying that there isn't some relationship, just that you didn't provide a link to a credible source that suggests it (and that I've not often seen water given with food listed often as a correlate or cause of bloat).

As for the amount of water in the dish, if you read what I suggested, it is until the food floats. That is a cup or less in a food dish, not the massive quantities you imply in your post ("If you add water to a dogs food they will ingest all of it no matter how large of amount you put in the bowl.").

I'll stick with my statement not to use kerosene or turpentine as well.

Best
 
brian, i've actually had a dog with the "reverse" issue in dealing with water/bloat/etc....

i was never big on adding water to dry kibble for various reasons....mainly, i didn't need to at the time. i guess at some point, you are always going to get that dog who hasn't read the studies.......in any case, this particular dog would eat his food and then gorge himself on the water, causing vomitting and the like....to be honest, i was always worried about "bloat" and "twist" with this particular dog.

as happenstance would have it, i attended a week long seminar in Georgia put on by Mike Lardy. he got to talking feeding time and whatnot, and what's he's found as far as research and what he's seen. we were focusing on when to feed and how to schedule that first feeding in order for the dog to be running at maximum levels on day 1 of a trial so far as energy utilization was concerned. he mentioned that he feeds "wet", which caught my attention....i asked why he fed wet and he explained in tremendous detail why - boiled down to maintaining water balance (wet/dry) of the dogs diet, stating many dogs will gorge on water leading to issues such as vomiting and the like. mike also feeds (or did) using warm water - though i honestly can't remember why.

many down here feed wet for the same reasons....and, i should add that it's not a total submersion but rather, enough to get the food to float in the bowl.

additionally, i've always been more concerned about "when" i fed in relation to twist and bloat vs water and the like, meaning, i won't feed a dog w/in several hours of training/hunting. particularly down in this heat....makes for a long evening if you train in the afternoons admittedly.

not trying to be argumentative, just tossing out the flip side of the same coin.

ya'll try to remember that the only thing 2 different dog trainers will ever agree on is that the other dude is doing it wrong.

-justin
 
Dr. Larry Glickman, an epidemiologist at the Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine, conducted a controlled study on canine bloat:

"Dogs that have bloated were found to have a much longer hepatogastric ligament; it is thought that this is due to chronic stretching. This could also explain why bloat risk increases with age."

"Risk is also higher for older dogs. For large breeds, the risk of developing bloat goes up 20 percent each year after the age of 5. For giant breeds, it goes up 20 percent each year after the age of 3. First degree relatives of dogs that have had bloat have a 63 percent greater risk of developing bloat themselves. Dogs that eat quickly have a 15 percent higher risk of developing bloat. This may be related to increased swallowing of air.

"One traditional preventative has been to raise the height of food and water bowls, but this was found to actually increase risk by 110 percent. This correlation of risk was verifiable; the dogs of the breeders in this study did not have close relatives that had experienced bloat."

"Twenty-five percent of bloat cases are caused by gastric dilation. The stomach fills with gas. The increased pressure compresses both ends of the stomach, preventing the gas from escaping. But most cases--75 percent--are due to gastric volvulus, where the stomach actually twists, crimping and cutting off the inflow and outflow from the stomach. When the stomach gases cannot get out, they expand."

As for gastric dilation, diluting the gastric juices (adding water or allowing consumption of water right before or after feeding), necessary for proper digestion leads to gas production. And gastric volvulus, take a couple of pieces of kibble and introduce water and see the difference in size after absorbtion. This leads to the condition of much longer hepatogastric ligament which over this chronic stretching leads to GDV.

Again which leads me to my original question why wouldn't you just slow down the dogs intake of food? Seems logical to me (based on research, knowledgeable vets advice, 12 plus years working with 10 to 12 labs almost 11 months out of the year), that this is potentially (with regards to potential gdv), the safest route to take.

I sincerely hope that no one ever has to deal with gdv. I am very fortunate to never had to deal with it personally with one of my client dogs or my own dogs. I know probably 8 to 10 owners that have lost labs to this condition.

I find it very unfortunate that someone has come on this board seeking good advice on a subject and you make light of it with a "kerosene or turpentine" reference. It not only disgusts me, but given the PM's and phone calls I have received today it has also disgusted alot of other people as well.
 
Good point Justin. Some trainers do feed in that manner to attempt to keep the dogs hydrated and avoid vomiting from consuming too much water directly after feeding. Most of the time I have seen this occur when trainers are on the road. To combat this I always try to keep the dogs hydrated by having access to water all day long.

How long ago was this seminar? I do remember a time when I did feed w/water in the kibble. Since then what I have read and seen personanlly with the dogs has caused me to shift back to feeding dry.

From what I have read and experienced it is suggested to allow a digestion period of about an hour after food intake before hydrating. Again, from the previous post the dilution of gastric juices can lead to the production of gases, which in turn can lead to gastric dilation.

I appreciate the info Justin.
 
Dr. Larry Glickman, an epidemiologist at the Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine, conducted a controlled study on canine bloat:

"Dogs that have bloated were found to have a much longer hepatogastric ligament; it is thought that this is due to chronic stretching. This could also explain why bloat risk increases with age."

"Risk is also higher for older dogs. For large breeds, the risk of developing bloat goes up 20 percent each year after the age of 5. For giant breeds, it goes up 20 percent each year after the age of 3. First degree relatives of dogs that have had bloat have a 63 percent greater risk of developing bloat themselves. Dogs that eat quickly have a 15 percent higher risk of developing bloat. This may be related to increased swallowing of air.

"One traditional preventative has been to raise the height of food and water bowls, but this was found to actually increase risk by 110 percent. This correlation of risk was verifiable; the dogs of the breeders in this study did not have close relatives that had experienced bloat."

"Twenty-five percent of bloat cases are caused by gastric dilation. The stomach fills with gas. The increased pressure compresses both ends of the stomach, preventing the gas from escaping. But most cases--75 percent--are due to gastric volvulus, where the stomach actually twists, crimping and cutting off the inflow and outflow from the stomach. When the stomach gases cannot get out, they expand."

As for gastric dilation, diluting the gastric juices (adding water or allowing consumption of water right before or after feeding), necessary for proper digestion leads to gas production. And gastric volvulus, take a couple of pieces of kibble and introduce water and see the difference in size after absorbtion. This leads to the condition of much longer hepatogastric ligament which over this chronic stretching leads to GDV.

Again which leads me to my original question why wouldn't you just slow down the dogs intake of food? Seems logical to me (based on research, knowledgeable vets advice, 12 plus years working with 10 to 12 labs almost 11 months out of the year), that this is potentially (with regards to potential gdv), the safest route to take.

I sincerely hope that no one ever has to deal with gdv. I am very fortunate to never had to deal with it personally with one of my client dogs or my own dogs. I know probably 8 to 10 owners that have lost labs to this condition.

I find it very unfortunate that someone has come on this board seeking good advice on a subject and you make light of it with a "kerosene or turpentine" reference. It not only disgusts me, but given the PM's and phone calls I have received today it has also disgusted alot of other people as well.
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First, I'll say that your and the legions of others feelings' of disgust and concern for Kevin, are misplaced. He took my comment as tongue in cheek as intended - so you can stop worrying there.

As far as bloat, I have always been concerned, given that one of my current labs is very large for a lab and a big eater and these attributes touch on some of the assumed risk factors.

I've looked through a bunch of the Glickman stuff given this discussion and quite honestly I am completely perplexed with his body of work. The body of work you cite seems very informative, but within his work there is so much contradictory evidence I don't know what to make of it. One study says that there is no effect of breed size, another using the same data set says the opposite. He presents data that eating speed is related to developing bloat (you cite it above as 15%) and another paper refutes it. The number of meals a day has no effect on bloat, but the size of the meal when corrected for body size does. These two factors are inverse parameters - as the number of meals increases the size decreases, but only the size of meals was found to have an effect. Sure weird relationships like that happen once in a while, but there are a too many examples within and between papers produced.

I'm not in any way saying you are wrong, but within his body of work it seems like anyone could support any argument as far as bloat using the work from this one lab group. As a practicing scientist for a bit longer than you have been a dog trainer I haven't seen something like this. So yes, you are 100% right in many cases, but there is opposite evidence in the sister papers. I don't think I would make a lot of dramatic decisions based on what I've read.

For all of my failures and shortcomings that you highlight, I have not seen a practical suggestion from you that would help someone slow the eating of their dog.
 
brian, i can't remember, but i was there in either 2006 or 2007 for the february session. dave smith was still with him at the time, and patton and ranger were on his truck, which may help with the time frame. it was pretty cool, as he had alot of his big gun AMs there with us (lynne dubose and jim and judy powers to name a few). you want to see someone who flat out knows what they are doing with a dog - watch mrs. dubose at the line.

his water down there is incredible.

if i think about it tonight, i'll drag out my notes as i remember writing a good bit down concerning the matter b/c i was having to deal with it at the time.

i will say, the dog in question saw real benefit from it and we've continued feeding with "wet" food.

in any case, i'm certainly no expert and may be off base.....heck, i can't remember if i put underwear on to come to work and i'm trying to regurgitate a conversation from several years ago.

-justin
 
First, I would like to apologize to Kevin for taking part in mucking up this post. I sincerely hope you got some useful information.

Ted, I agree that there is information that can be contradictory in serveral papers and research. With that being said there is enough information presented that give a plausible causation for gdv. Given that (and I laid it out in my last post), there is information that clearly states two different scenarios for gdv to take place.

When training I certainly would not train in an area I feel a dog could get injured (steep ditches, etc), so why in the world would I subscribe to a feeding protocol that even based on intrepretation would potentially result in an injury to a retriever. Defies logic to me, but again I am just a simple dog trainer.

I believe I have stated in several posts that getting a different bowl will solve the problem. As a scientist I thought you would be a little bit more thorough reading the posts. And as a scientist I am sure you have alot more hands on with working retrievers on a daily basis than me. What was I thinking...

Tounge in cheek or not it was a disgusting comment that you made. I hear of too many retrievers being poisoned to recognize it as humor.

I am done with you on this topic...
 
First, I would like to apologize to Kevin for taking part in mucking up this post. I sincerely hope you got some useful information.

Ted, I agree that there is information that can be contradictory in serveral papers and research. With that being said there is enough information presented that give a plausible causation for gdv. Given that (and I laid it out in my last post), there is information that clearly states two different scenarios for gdv to take place.

When training I certainly would not train in an area I feel a dog could get injured (steep ditches, etc), so why in the world would I subscribe to a feeding protocol that even based on intrepretation would potentially result in an injury to a retriever. Defies logic to me, but again I am just a simple dog trainer.

I believe I have stated in several posts that getting a different bowl will solve the problem. As a scientist I thought you would be a little bit more thorough reading the posts. And as a scientist I am sure you have alot more hands on with working retrievers on a daily basis than me. What was I thinking...

Tounge in cheek or not it was a disgusting comment that you made. I hear of too many retrievers being poisoned to recognize it as humor.

I am done with you on this topic...
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Just to be clear Brian, you jumped in on a thread with an opinion not supported at the time with any fact or any solution to Kevin's problem at had. That is not in dispute, anyone can read it above. You only offered a solution and the background to support your statement after I made a comment and you took that comment as a challenge to your expertise. Fact of the matter is - you didn't do a thing to help the guy out and offer a solution until you felt that I challenged you and then you stepped up and did what you should have done from the get go.

Since you have stated that this forum is important to you and that assholes like me are sure to be its downfall, why don't you counter my overwhelming assholeness and step it up next time there is a dog question and actually answer it fully the first time.
 
Tod,

Please let this go. I personally though the comment was dis-tastefull also and it seems that you've been very argumentative lately.

Again, please just let it go.

Thanks,

Todd
 
Thanks Carl. Like your style. And now for a little levity, next week I'll be asking about Politics, abortion, Religous views and taxes. Thanks guys, Kevin
 
Dont forget global warming & climate change!

On a related note, I am actually quite amazed how calmly & slowly my lab eats. She just sits down & takes her time.
 
I bought a couple of bowls from Leerburg kennels they have large knobs or what ever in the bottom and it works like a champ. Don't have to mess with how the food is presented. Previously I would feed my chessy and she would be done before I had gone 15', now it takes her 5-10 minutes which is just about right. I am not a rep from Leerburg either.
 
Dont forget global warming & climate change!


--------------------

Let's not forget Beretta vs Benelli; Remington vs Winchester; whether or not to buy ammo at Walmart if it's the cheapest spot in town; or evolution.
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Personally, I found this thread very helpful. I've got a teenager who eats way too fast, so I added water to his dinner plate last night--just enough to float his meatloaf and green beans--and it really slowed him down.

Thanks for the great advice Ted.

Rick
 
Personally, I found this thread very helpful. I've got a teenager who eats way too fast, so I added water to his dinner plate last night--just enough to float his meatloaf and green beans--and it really slowed him down.

Thanks for the great advice Ted.

Rick
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No problem, pRick.

T
 
It's called a Brake Fast bowl...it has cones that the dog needs to eat around and it slides around on the floor too, which slows the dog down... works well.
 
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