NDR: Lead bullet fragmentation

Rick Kyte

Rick Kyte

Well-known member
Last spring the Minnesota DNR did a study of lead fragmentation in deer killed by rifle, shotgun, and muzzleloader. They tested venison donated to food shelves and found 25% of ground venison contained lead fragments. Then they tested five different types of bullets + shotgun slugs and muzzleloader rounds into sheep and x-rayed the carcasses to detect lead fragments. Some of the fragments, especialy from ballistic tip and soft point bullets, travelled 18" from the wound channel.

Here's the link to the study presentation: http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/lead/index.htm

Rick
 
I have found lead fragments in ground deer from my local butcher.

I haven't butchered too many deer myself, but it's pretty easy to find lead, especially b/c of the blood clot that surrounds it.

Sounds like laziness to me.

-D
 
Remember a related topic became a heated thread last year.

I would like to fire the first shot across Sutton's bow and make my stance on this public:

"Bullet fragmentation is a myth and no raptors including the rare California Condor (Nutsackhead) have ever been harmed by ingesting carrion that contained lead from bullet fragmentation. Furthermore, Steelhead do live in the Great Lakes".....okay forget about the steelhead part that was another heated thread.

Seriously, as I recall the jist of this was that antis were trying there darndest to eliminate this avenue for justifying deer harvest.
 
Jay,

I must have missed the thread last year. What got my attention was the report released this month by the MN DNR and the concern about human ingestion of lead contained in venison. To my understanding, this has nothing to do with pro or anti hunting; it just raises questions about the best methods for harvesting and processing deer.

It's surprising to me that the studies of sheep carcasses showed little difference between traditional soft-point bullets (like the Remington Core-Lokt) and the bonded core bullets (from Hornady or Nosler) which are supposed to retain their weight much better.

Rick
 
we could go back to the patched round ball days -- never had a round ball fragment that i can recall

or

just shoot em with sharp pointy sticks with razors at the end
 
I'm not going to get into this more then to say... It doesn't really matter because others have studied the people who eat this venison and found no elevated levels of lead in these families that was not from another source.

Tim
 
Rick,

I haven't read the MN report. I read the one last year that was from one of the Dakotas. It was a slight of hand operation in that case. Perhaps MN is on top of things. As Tim stated, there is no evidence to suggest it's a problem. I'd suggest that the socioeconomic status of those folks and their requisite behavior ie heavy smoking, drugs, poor diet, uprotected sex etc is by far and away more destrimental to them healthwise. Of course, I'm not saying they are all like that.
 
Jay,
The MN report is careful to state that they do not have reports of lead poisoning in people that consume venison, but also that there haven't been adequate scientific studies of that. What they looked at is the physical evidence of fragmentation when shooting bullets into sheep. The difference, say, between a sheep that is hit in the shoulder versus the hind quarters is remarkable.
Rick
 
While watching the presentation I couldn't help but think they were setting up a case for "shotguns only" deer hunting in MN. They repeatedly assert that shotgun slugs fragment less than other types of bullets even though the bonded core and copper only bullets fragment the least of all types of ammunition.

Outlawing hunting rifles because they are "unhealthy" for the hunter sounds like something a nanny state could (and would) do. Maybe I'm paranoid, but with the way the wind is blowing I can't help it.

Kevin
 
I guess I'm less paranoid than that--maybe less than I should be--and I don't read into the report the attempt to set up a case for any kind of restriction. I really appreciate the kind of studies that allow hunters to make informed decisions--in this case about things like ammunition selection and deer processing. I don't like the government placing unnecessary restrictions on hunters, but I do appreciate studies that give us information that we couldn't collect on our own and that would not be provided by manufacturers.
Rick
 
on this topic polarized just as quickly as this one started to....some people stating that it was informational, of value to know, had some important future implication, and then others screamed that the Dr. that did the study that found the lead was clearly "anti-hunting" and that the intent was not only to stop hunting but also to take food out of the mouths of the poor people.....

Nature of the beast I guess but I'm with you when you state that when dealing with a "known" poision its nice to know whats happening and to be able to make some "informed" choices and/or to look at something without believing there's a "hidden agenda", a "conspiracy" whose intent is to steal our guns, and our hunting heritage, one lead bullet at at time....

And just for Jay...you're right Jay...any bird "STUPID ENOUGH NOT TO EVOLVE AND STOP BEING A SCAVENGER WHEN IT SHOULD BE SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT IT's THE LEAD FRAGMENTS IN THE CARCASSES THAT ITS FEEDING ON DESERVES SO GO EXTINCT"....you are absolutely correct in that....absolutely and unequivocally....

Steve, the Tree Hugger, the Bunny Lover, proponant for "getting the lead out", Sutton
 
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Steve, you took the words right out of Dave Park's mouth!

I was shocked at the amount of lead fragmentation in the buck I shot last year. That was a .44 mag 245 grain jacketed soft point. There was little bits of lead all over the place. I butchered that deer and pitched a bunch of meat in the vicinity. Totally anecdotal but it sure made me wonder.
 
when you took your OFFISHAL Public Stance above where you stated "NO Condor, or other bird of prey had died from lead poisioning from eating carrion" you were just kidding......like when you invited the site membership to Indiana for "the Mother of all Rail hunts".....

I'm slow but I'm catching on....Jay makes an ironclad statement = Jay is kidding.....

Got it....

Steve
 
I didn't mean to bring up an old controversy . . . but I do enjoy the Sutton-Anglin exchanges. (And that's not ironic--it's seriously funny.)
Rick
 
Jay,
I won't go too far into this except to add a little to your observation on the .44. Many years ago I shot a smallish whitetail that needed to be finished off. Having the foresight to be carrying one heavy Ruger blackhawk .44, I did the deed to said deer with a shot to the skull using I beleive 210 grain hollow points. Now, at 2 feet you'd think something would have completely penetrated. Nope, nadda. I was amazed. a skull the size of a small apple would not even buldge from a .44. Can't help but think that bullet completely dissentegrated inside the skull. I didn't do an autopsy, or is it necropsy?
No fragments noted from .54 round ball on a deer this year.
 
Another interesting but not surprising personal experience... Two years ago I shot a 1 1/2 year old whitetail buck (about 140#dressed) with a 22-250 using 55gr softpoint at about 25 yards. Entrance was in the right eye with no visible exit. I boiled off the skull out of curiosity and found NO bullets holes at all. Much of the fine bone material in the sinuses was destroyed and the skull had a large radial crack around the base. When I was washing it out in a metal pot I could hear the "tink, tink" of metal falling out of the gray matter coming out. So, taking the point to an extreme, a small, soft bullet pushed very fast will completely disintigrate and disperse throughout the area.

As a note, I am not a proponent of small caliber rifles being used for big game. I have enough experience with both .223 and 22-250 to say they are not good "hunting" calibers. They can be used to kill deer very effectively but not under what most consider "hunting" conditions. A good rest and self restraint are a must.

Gene
 
I shoot Nosler partitions exclusively and have not had a problem with fragmentation.
Lead bullets do come apart if they hit big bones, and can make a mess. The higher the speed, and smaller size, the better chance of coming apart - along the lines of what Gene mentions.
 
Wouldn't you think that the "anti's" would be all-for the deer-shooting rednecks to get a little extra lead in their diet, that way they'd all be too dumb to reproduce and eventually they'd disappear and the world could be a utopia filled with rainbows and sunshine where everyone loves each other?
And a person cutting up a deer is a necropsy, but a deer cutting up a deer would be an autopsy.
 
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