Need advice on shooting a .410 for ducks this year to reduce recoil

Patrick Ward said:
certainly so!
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No where near as expensive as the hospital, doctors, surgeons, etc, etc that you are dealing with.

I am wanting to use my 28 gauges and my 410 gauge for ducks and pheasants this year. I was actually planning on purchasing my shotshells from Red Dawn Shotshells. He has a good reputation with his shotshells from what I've read. I looked in to reloading my own but by the time it's all said and done you aren't really saving that much, if my calculations were correct. I do reload rifle cartridges so I'm pretty confident that I was in the ballpark with the costs.

I call it the cost of admission to play the game.

Good Luck!
Fred
 
Patrick Ward said:
Those are great ideas I hadn’t considered!

How did you find the right mag cap reducer? I assume your 28 mag cap was threaded the same as a beretta?

How did you add weight to the other end of the gun?

I’ve put new recoil pads on before. I can definitely do that.
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For the Tristar there is no screw on replacement mag cap weight. What I did was order the Graco Recoil Reducer/Counter weight from MGW for the Beretta 303. This has a bolt that threads thru a hole in mag cap into back of weight for attachment. A drop of Blue Loctite on threads and its good to go. You'll need to remove sling swivel from front of original cap and drill hole out to 1/4" for bolt to 303 weight to pass thru. There is possibly another approach of removing cap that retains mag tube spring and replacing plug with weight appropriate to your liking. I,ve been told that spring cap can be removed by others but haven't tried it. If you follow that path just make sure your mag tube still only holds 2 shells. I haven't added weight in rear to mine but could be accomplished by adding a lead slug in hole for stock bolt behind pad. I much preferred the weight forward for myself of just 8 oz. reducer on mag cap. Actually did the same to my SX4 20 . Swing just right for me now. Also switch your pad out for a Limbsaver pad. Those factory TriStar pads at least in 410 & 28 guns aren't much for absorbing waterfowl loads. Those are 1" thick pads so you may need to shorten buttstock a bit. I needed a 14" L.O.P. so had to trim mine from factory length anyway.
 
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An easy way to tinker with adding weight in the stock is to put some lead shot in a plastic sandwich bag. Roll it up and insert in the stock, add or remove shot as desired. Six to eight ounces will have a profound effect on the gun's dynamics. Once you get it right to try shooting it, tape the baggie shut. Stuff a wad of paper towel in first to hold the weight in place, it usually works best to keep the weight as far back as possible. Once you get it dialed in permanently, fill a short length of copper tubing with molten lead, then trim to get the weight correct. Obviously the tubing needs to be small enough to fit in the buttstock hole, take up any slack with wraps of electrical tape.
 
HenryHawthorne said:
The physics of pushing a longer, narrower shot column and the increasing pressure developed due to friction and constriction.

A 12 gauge has a bore just under .75 inches, a 20g just under .62 inches, and a .410, .41 inches (33% tighter than 20g, almost 44% tighter than a 12g).

To keep it to your .410 and 20g options, let's use Noah's recommendation of 1/2oz #9s. Just looked that up and #9s are .08" and you'd get roughly 180 pellets in 1/2 oz.

As is obvious, that 1/2oz would require a longer shot column to fit in the .410 shell than in the .615 (20g) shell. That puts more pellets in contact with the barrels... more friction. More friction means more pressure behind the shot column, yielding more recoil.

I'm not suggesting that this is the biggest contributor, I suspect it is relatively small... but, I also suspect between this and the little extra weight of the 20g vs the .410, you'd feel notably less recoil shooting a 20g with a .410 load (even stepping up to 5/8 or 9/16 oz).
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That half ounce charge of TSS won't work in a 20 gauge, trust me we have tried. With TSS being extremely dense the shot columns are ultra short. 1/2oz of TSS in a 20ga wad takes up little to no room. 5/8oz in a 20ga will work but it requires some serious fillers and wad trimming to take up enough space to get it to fit. Most guys shooting payloads that light are stacking a 28ga wad inside of their 20ga wad to take up space.

For reference, to get 5/8oz of TSS to fit in a 3" 410 wad we have to use 3/4" of felt fillers. The 3" 410 wad is only about 65% full with 5/8oz of shot.

3/4 or 7/8oz in a 20ga is much easier to achieve.

The phenomena Henry describes may contribute slightly to recoil, but the major players in the equation are gun weight, velocity of the shell, and the overall payload weight including the wad and powder.

Felt recoil under 10 foot pounds is very little. You can get it down even further by slowing down your loads.

TSS #9 shot at 1300 fps gets 1.50" of gel penetration at 68.5 yards. It doesn't have to be going very fast to be effective. Most turkey loads are 1100 fps or less.

Say we slowed our 1/2oz payload down to 1200 fps, now we are at 6.7 foot pounds of recoil

Say we slowed our payload down to 1200 FPS and got the gun weight up to 6.5 pounds, now we are at 5.9 foot pounds of recoil.

If it were me, I wouldn't worry with gun modifications, and would just shoot the tristar the way it comes with the factory cylinder choke and 1/2 oz of TSS 9's at 1200 FPS. Hodgdon Lil Gun powder will work well for this.
 
I have no experience on this topic but had to add that this kind of thread is why we all love the DHBP.
New guy comes on with a question that on some sites would generate a lot of pushback and criticism.
Not here!
Here we have knowledgeable hunters & reloaders, who know loads, the science side of loads and recoil, shot options, direct and indirect experience with small bores guns, all offering sound advice, options and informed opinions.
Damn, I love this place.
That is all, carry on.
 
Noah Shaver said:
That half ounce charge of TSS won't work in a 20 gauge, trust me we have tried. With TSS being extremely dense the shot columns are ultra short. 1/2oz of TSS in a 20ga wad takes up little to no room. 5/8oz in a 20ga will work but it requires some serious fillers and wad trimming to take up enough space to get it to fit. Most guys shooting payloads that light are stacking a 28ga wad inside of their 20ga wad to take up space.

For reference, to get 5/8oz of TSS to fit in a 3" 410 wad we have to use 3/4" of felt fillers. The 3" 410 wad is only about 65% full with 5/8oz of shot.

3/4 or 7/8oz in a 20ga is much easier to achieve.

The phenomena Henry describes may contribute slightly to recoil, but the major players in the equation are gun weight, velocity of the shell, and the overall payload weight including the wad and powder.

Felt recoil under 10 foot pounds is very little. You can get it down even further by slowing down your loads.

TSS #9 shot at 1300 fps gets 1.50" of gel penetration at 68.5 yards. It doesn't have to be going very fast to be effective. Most turkey loads are 1100 fps or less.

Say we slowed our 1/2oz payload down to 1200 fps, now we are at 6.7 foot pounds of recoil

Say we slowed our payload down to 1200 FPS and got the gun weight up to 6.5 pounds, now we are at 5.9 foot pounds of recoil.

If it were me, I wouldn't worry with gun modifications, and would just shoot the tristar the way it comes with the factory cylinder choke and 1/2 oz of TSS 9's at 1200 FPS. Hodgdon Lil Gun powder will work well for this.
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Very useful, thank you! I understand the basic physics but as I don't reload myself (yet), I don't have the practical experience on what may not work in the real world.
 
Fred McIntire said:
No where near as expensive as the hospital, doctors, surgeons, etc, etc that you are dealing with.

I am wanting to use my 28 gauges and my 410 gauge for ducks and pheasants this year. I was actually planning on purchasing my shotshells from Red Dawn Shotshells. He has a good reputation with his shotshells from what I've read. I looked in to reloading my own but by the time it's all said and done you aren't really saving that much, if my calculations were correct. I do reload rifle cartridges so I'm pretty confident that I was in the ballpark with the costs.

I call it the cost of admission to play the game.

Good Luck!
Fred
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Thanks for checking on the pricing of that. I appreciate the perspective from someone who has reloaded before.

I will never get back the time and pain this has literally cost me.
 
Noah Shaver said:
That half ounce charge of TSS won't work in a 20 gauge, trust me we have tried. With TSS being extremely dense the shot columns are ultra short. 1/2oz of TSS in a 20ga wad takes up little to no room. 5/8oz in a 20ga will work but it requires some serious fillers and wad trimming to take up enough space to get it to fit. Most guys shooting payloads that light are stacking a 28ga wad inside of their 20ga wad to take up space.

For reference, to get 5/8oz of TSS to fit in a 3" 410 wad we have to use 3/4" of felt fillers. The 3" 410 wad is only about 65% full with 5/8oz of shot.

3/4 or 7/8oz in a 20ga is much easier to achieve.

The phenomena Henry describes may contribute slightly to recoil, but the major players in the equation are gun weight, velocity of the shell, and the overall payload weight including the wad and powder.

Felt recoil under 10 foot pounds is very little. You can get it down even further by slowing down your loads.

TSS #9 shot at 1300 fps gets 1.50" of gel penetration at 68.5 yards. It doesn't have to be going very fast to be effective. Most turkey loads are 1100 fps or less.

Say we slowed our 1/2oz payload down to 1200 fps, now we are at 6.7 foot pounds of recoil

Say we slowed our payload down to 1200 FPS and got the gun weight up to 6.5 pounds, now we are at 5.9 foot pounds of recoil.

If it were me, I wouldn't worry with gun modifications, and would just shoot the tristar the way it comes with the factory cylinder choke and 1/2 oz of TSS 9's at 1200 FPS. Hodgdon Lil Gun powder will work well for this.
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I appreciate the explanation. Since I have no experience with reloading, working a 20ga like that sounds like it is beyond what I should be trying.
 
Patrick Ward said:
I appreciate the explanation. Since I have no experience with reloading, working a 20ga like that sounds like it is beyond what I should be trying.
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Patrick, all you need to make the 410 loads to your specs is a roll crimp tool and a small scale. Of course you will need a bag of 410 pre-primed hulls, powder, some tss shot, a bag of wads, overshot cards, and a bag of the felt filler wads.

Your initial cost in equipment will be about $60-$75.

Take your new hull, weigh out your powder charge, dump it in the hull, insert your wad firmly, stack 3 of the felt fillers in the wad, weigh out your shot charge and dump it in. Put an overshot card in there and then take it to your drill press or cordless drill and put the final roll crimp on it.

Ballistic Products has all of the components in stock currently. The hulls can be hard to find. You can buy your TSS from other vendors at a better price, but BPI is the go to for the rest of your components.
 
I would shoot tss 8's and pair it with some carlson extended non ported sporting clay chokes and wouldn't feel under gunned inside 45 yards with the right coke in.

LM or IC would most likely cover all your need sour to 45 yards with a good load of number 8 tss shot.

Expensive for sure but it will keep you in the game while you heal.
 
You mentioned you have a 20g Browning. Look into 2 3/4" shells for that 20. Between the weight of that gun and the lighter 2 3/4" loads you may find felt recoil to be relatively light. Started my grandson on those in upland steel. Kicked less than the 410. He hated that light little 410 because it had such a sharp recoil. Try 20 gauge 2 3/4" upland steel.
 
Ronald Bock said:
You mentioned you have a 20g Browning. Look into 2 3/4" shells for that 20. Between the weight of that gun and the lighter 2 3/4" loads you may find felt recoil to be relatively light. Started my grandson on those in upland steel. Kicked less than the 410. He hated that light little 410 because it had such a sharp recoil. Try 20 gauge 2 3/4" upland steel.
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I appreciate the thought. Part of the issue, and what sent me to the .410, is that the actual weight of the gun is important. As of now, I am strictly limited on what I can actually pickup as well as shoot.
 
Patrick Ward said:
I appreciate the thought. Part of the issue, and what sent me to the .410, is that the actual weight of the gun is important. As of now, I am strictly limited on what I can actually pickup as well as shoot.
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Sorry to say it brother but you may have to do your shooting this year with a Cannon or Nikon. Let yourself heal properly so you don't lose next season and the many more to come. I know it bites though. Shoulder injuries are nothing to mess with. Hang in there
 
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