new york just got worse

Interesting thread, it is funny to me that here in the land of 10,000 taxes and lakes where nothing is legal we don't have a boating test for adults. I do think that an exam and operating test would be a good idea BUT the fee is truly a money grab. I am presently teaching my last time through a firearms safety class and now the children taking the course do not have to pay a cent until they successfully finish the class. I have had more dropouts this time than ever before, no pay no sense of value. On the other hand a concealed carry permit is near a couple hundred dollars. Much more value there. "You can't fix stupid" and "Life is hard but much harder when you are stupid". Keep your dauber up guys.
 
We are bordering on the absurd. No boating instructor would ever tell us to go out in the boats, and bad conditions we boat in. WE ARE DUCK HUNTERS! Aka Crazy, by many other folks standards. If there were as many of us, as there are recreational boaters there would be Big trouble... That said, I find our lot a much safer group, than recreational boaters.

I retired from the Pa Liquor Control Board, after working in one of there Outlet Stores for several years. What I learned is that there are far more impaired, and drunk people in the day time, doing everything that they should not be doing, than folks Ever Realize. Boating is just one of those things.
 
Others here may have the statistics at their fingertips, but I believe that the combination of required hunter safety and hunter orange clothing dramatically decreased hunting accidents. That's a tribute to strong curriculum and the excellent folks who teach hunter safety classes. There are still idiots who pass the class and do dumb things, but think how much worse it might be if they were out there with no training.

I see no reason why a similar, well-planned class couldn't be effective for improving boating safety.

To my knowledge, Maine does not have a requirement, but they ought to.

In the comments above, it seems clear that some improvements could be made to make the system less onerous once you've been certified and perhaps to recognize other training (like a 6 pack or captains license) as meeting the requirement.

Regarding idiots in boats, I think the prize goes to the group of 4 hunters and a dog I saw in a 16 foot canoe last November on a day the lake was making ice. They had maybe 3 inches of freeboard, and not one of them was wearing a life jacket. Thank goodness it was calm.
 
im not saying that a class is a bad idea but us having to pay for the class and then having to pay additional to have it added to are license just seems like this is all about money?
 
Keith, I guess it depends on the fee. If we're talking about a one time $5 as Carl described, and a fee to cover the cost of the instructor of the class, I'd say they're just covering administrative costs.

I do have to say that during my three year residence in New Jersey, dealing with the Department of Motor Vehicles to get my NJ license was the single most frustrating experience I have ever had with a government agency, so I'm not hopeful that NJ is making it easy and cheap. LOL!
 
Jeff et al~

FYI: The course I signed up for next week will cost me $82. And, yes, I was surprised how high it was. I do not know if the fee for the certificate from NYS Parks is included AND I am still trying to find out if the fee to NYS Motor Vehicles for putting it (the letter V for Vessel) on my Drivers License will be a recurring cost.

SJS
 
Leave it to NYS to take a sensible idea (and having held my OUPV for many years and ran charters, I've seen my fair share of knuckleheads who haven't a clue) and twist it up into something confusing and costly. Bring DMV into it, and now it's a nightmare. Did the same thing with the gun/ammunition laws and salt water fishing license.
 
I am all for boaters education classes and I would take it a step farther by requiring a water road tests. Nothing takes the place of hands on experience and training. I have been working in the marine industry for years and have had to deliver small boats and multi million dollar yachts to some people that have no business being at the helm. Some have taken their safety classes other have not. Nothing and I mean nothing takes the place of hands on experience.
That said, I don't think it should turn into a money grab but I am all for a boaters license with a small fee. You need to have a license to drive a car, truck, motorcycle or anything else on public roads so what makes public waterways any different?
In our household it is a rite of passage, 10 years old you take a boaters safety class, 12 years old you take your hunters safety class and if physically big enough you also take your scuba diving certification classes, 16 learners permit for driving a car. I don't think a little education has ever hurt anyone.
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Just playing devils advocate here John. Should I be required to thave a license to ride a bike, operate a lawn mower, use a power tool, fly a RC aircraft, paddle a canoe etc.....? Not saying a boating class is silly or anything, just saying what we are required to do is not in our best interest all the time. Money, it's all about money.

How about building permits - same thing. I had to pull a permit to have a licensed plumber come into my house and replace my water heater. Why? The inspector may, or may not, come out to inspect the work. And, let's suppose he did come out and approve the install and then the water heater blows up because it wasn't installed properly. Does the inspector have any liability for wrongful inspections - don't think so. All it is is money, nothing more.

My opinion naturally, others opinions may vary.

Mark W
 
And, let's suppose he did come out and approve the install and then the water heater blows up because it wasn't installed properly. Does the inspector have any liability for wrongful inspections - don't think so.
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Actually, I believe that the inspector, and/or the entity they work for, do incur liability for signing off on work that clearly does not meet code.
The plumbing contractor, of course, does also.
Usually it turns into a he said/she said game in front of a judge, who ultimately assigns the two parties liability & monetary responsibility.
 
Mark~

Having installed at least 3 electric water heaters that I can recall, I definitely view your example as overreach by government - an intrusion on our ability to lead independent lives and to exist as more than just "consumers". I plan to continue to install and maintain my own water heaters without public oversight. (On the other hand, no way would I trust myself to hook up any gas appliance - it's too easy to make a lethal mistake and I'm happy to pay for professional services there.)

My support for educating vessel operators stems primarily from observations that there are many on the water who have insufficient knowledge AND have responsibility for the lives of others. The 2 incidents that spurred the NYS legislation involved kids killed or injured by negligent fathers at the helm. Also, whether or not there is a recurring cost (not sure yet), the education itself is "one and done" - like a road test for driving or hunter safety. In that same vein, I would be more supportive if some demonstration of boat-handling were required of the participants.

In my view, any regulation of human activities requires a very careful analysis of the need (what are the risks?) and the costs (both our money and our time). "Good" regulations balance these factors fairly and at no more cost than is truly necessary.

All the best,

SJS
 
This post has gotten me to read the "Dear Boater" letter I recently received from the Parks Dept. I've already been teaching my two older boys to run the boat for our own safety, so that they could operate it efficiently if they had to. My oldest son currently has his driver's learners permit too and the process of practice driving has been similar.

As for the boaters course, I'm not against it. I'm sure the boys will learn some things while they are there. It will be tough to find time in their current schedule to get them both to a course. But as with the driver's test and hunter's safety, we'll find the time.

Looking at the list of courses, it appears as if the course fee is charged by the instructor (not the state). The state is charging $10 to those 18 and older for a copy of the Boater's Safety Certificate. I can't tell whether or not that certificate will have to be renewed (with a recurring fee). According to the letter from the parks, getting the boater's icon added to your driver's license appears to be optional in the case that you don't want to carry your boater's safety certificate with you.

It's just too bad that our state has to make another mandate in the name of "safety", when it can't protect us from the boneheads out there. Like someone else has said, I prefer to be on the water in the winter without a lot of the boneheads.
 
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I am all for boaters education classes and I would take it a step farther by requiring a water road tests. Nothing takes the place of hands on experience and training. I have been working in the marine industry for years and have had to deliver small boats and multi million dollar yachts to some people that have no business being at the helm. Some have taken their safety classes other have not. Nothing and I mean nothing takes the place of hands on experience.
That said, I don't think it should turn into a money grab but I am all for a boaters license with a small fee. You need to have a license to drive a car, truck, motorcycle or anything else on public roads so what makes public waterways any different?
In our household it is a rite of passage, 10 years old you take a boaters safety class, 12 years old you take your hunters safety class and if physically big enough you also take your scuba diving certification classes, 16 learners permit for driving a car. I don't think a little education has ever hurt anyone.
Click to expand...


Just playing devils advocate here John. Should I be required to thave a license to ride a bike, operate a lawn mower, use a power tool, fly a RC aircraft, paddle a canoe etc.....? Not saying a boating class is silly or anything, just saying what we are required to do is not in our best interest all the time. Money, it's all about money.

How about building permits - same thing. I had to pull a permit to have a licensed plumber come into my house and replace my water heater. Why? The inspector may, or may not, come out to inspect the work. And, let's suppose he did come out and approve the install and then the water heater blows up because it wasn't installed properly. Does the inspector have any liability for wrongful inspections - don't think so. All it is is money, nothing more.

My opinion naturally, others opinions may vary.

Mark W
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Mark,

The boaters safety class fees are paid to the instructor not the state. Classes are given by a local Coast Guard Aux or Power Squadrons. So I don't see it as the usual money grab.
I'm not saying anyone should have to have a license for a bike or lawn mower etc etc...but if you were here boating in the NY Metro area you would understand the need to educate some boaters. It is just more of the same BS where a few bad apples end up costing the rest of us money. I think the key to safety on the water is education, experience and enforcement. Unfortunately, the state and feds have cut the budget back so far that you don't see LEO's on the water as much as they have been in the past. I know this is not just a problem here in NY. I run boats up and down the the east coast and into the gulf and idiots are everywhere. We just seem to have a few more in these parts.
 
And, let's suppose he did come out and approve the install and then the water heater blows up because it wasn't installed properly. Does the inspector have any liability for wrongful inspections - don't think so.
Click to expand...



Actually, I believe that the inspector, and/or the entity they work for, do incur liability for signing off on work that clearly does not meet code.
The plumbing contractor, of course, does also.
Usually it turns into a he said/she said game in front of a judge, who ultimately assigns the two parties liability & monetary responsibility.
Click to expand...

Not here. The inspector is an employee of the city. I can't sue the city over inspections that's aren't worth a darn and then the house falls apart later or the water heater blows up due to poor workmanship. I can sue the contractor but not the city. If it was installed incorrectly and the inspector passed it and he has no responsibility, why am I paying a $25 city inspection fee?

I'm not against a boating safety class, I am against having to keep paying renewing license fees. It is all about money and nothing more.

Mark w
 
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